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Transgender boys in girl scouts.
Posted: 21 January 2012 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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A “normal life”? What the heck does that mean anyway?

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Posted: 21 January 2012 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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George - 21 January 2012 09:24 PM

A “normal life”? What the heck does that mean anyway?

Being a transgender is absolutely abnormal. They exist far beyond the typical behaviors of regular society.

Edit

Seriously George. Can you really say that being a transgender is normal?

[ Edited: 21 January 2012 10:27 PM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 22 January 2012 12:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:52 PM
dougsmith - 21 January 2012 08:41 PM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:36 PM

My claim was just that nothing scientifically has proven a complete identical match from a transgenders brain to the brain of their preferred sex.

This claim is uncontroversial, AFAIK, and also completely beside the point. It should imply nothing about how we treat transgendered people publicly.

Actually, the claim of what exactly transgenders are is highly controversial and is constantly under scrutiny, but TG will never have a normal life because it is a disorder. Would you honestly say that you could have a physical relationship with a TG equally and as undoubtedly as you could with any woman?

If I may cut in gents; Ex Machina, it is certainly true that a TG person will have a much different life experience than a non TG person, but as Doug pointed out, their “out of ordinary to most life” should not make them subject to public discrimination.  Doug, I don’t think E.M. is advocating hate for TG people; it appears to me that he is claiming that he simply won’t consider them as a true male or female in his subjective universe - which is not an assault on their quality of life IMO.

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Posted: 22 January 2012 01:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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mid atlantic - 22 January 2012 12:55 AM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:52 PM
dougsmith - 21 January 2012 08:41 PM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:36 PM

My claim was just that nothing scientifically has proven a complete identical match from a transgenders brain to the brain of their preferred sex.

This claim is uncontroversial, AFAIK, and also completely beside the point. It should imply nothing about how we treat transgendered people publicly.

Actually, the claim of what exactly transgenders are is highly controversial and is constantly under scrutiny, but TG will never have a normal life because it is a disorder. Would you honestly say that you could have a physical relationship with a TG equally and as undoubtedly as you could with any woman?

If I may cut in gents; Ex Machina, it is certainly true that a TG person will have a much different life experience than a non TG person, but as Doug pointed out, their “out of ordinary to most life” should not make them subject to public discrimination.  Doug, I don’t think E.M. is advocating hate for TG people; it appears to me that he is claiming that he simply won’t consider them as a true male or female in his subjective universe - which is not an assault on their quality of life IMO.

Nicely stated, Mid Atlantic. I appreciate you helping clarify this. I never once made the claim there ever be discriminated against a TG, but that I didn’t appreciate the flip side of having been pressured into accepting them as a gender that I don’t see them as being. This in no way says that I don’t believe that they should be able to live how they want, just that their views aren’t forced on me any more than I would force mine on theirs. I also wanted to point out that a TG will never have a normal life (hence abnormal). Meaning that they will never live their lives in a way which is common among society.

[ Edited: 22 January 2012 02:04 AM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 22 January 2012 02:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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macgyver - 21 January 2012 07:22 AM
mid atlantic - 21 January 2012 06:57 AM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 04:09 AM

Does anyone her truly believe that a man can be trapped in woman’s body and vice verse?

and

Is there really anyone here who believes that it is possible to change a persons sex?

I believe that it is a real phenomenon,but I have no idea what the “brain chemistry” behind it is.    Re: sex changes - Well, we know that they happen! The “realness” of it is subjective,it would seem.

I’ve said this in a previous post in this thread but maybe I need to reword it. Look at it this way. You are a man trapped in a man’s body right? Mentally you are a man and there is no question about your orientation I assume ( I am making some assumptions here but this is the case for me so I will assume your situation is the same). Feeling as though you are male or female is not an ambiguous thing for most people. You either are one or the other with a few exceptions. Obviously something “programs” our brains to be male or female and if you read my post above I linked to a study that showed that hermaphrodites who were morphologically female but genetically male identified themselves as male even though they their families thought they were female and they had been raised as such. Obviously biology plays a huge role in sexual identification. Its no great leap to imagine that nature and biology sometimes screw things up. I know of very few biological characteristics ( maybe none) where nature never makes a mistake.

Actually Macgyver, I got mixed in the wash of the other posts that I didn’t get a chance to fully read yours, but I wanted to say that I can agree to that possibility to some degree. Maybe something in their chemistry makes their behavior emulate their preferred gender that could be argued as being the same mind, but as for the girl scouts, I’m not thinking on the interest of the TG as much as I’m looking at the interests of the girl scouts. They may just not feel comfortable with having a boy in their troop. Regardless of their mental status, a TG boy is still in fact a boy.

[ Edited: 22 January 2012 03:31 AM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 22 January 2012 05:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 10:10 PM
George - 21 January 2012 09:24 PM

A “normal life”? What the heck does that mean anyway?

Being a transgender is absolutely abnormal. They exist far beyond the typical behaviors of regular society.

Many would say so is being homosexual or atheist. So is being disabled. If you are talking statistically, so is being Jewish or italian american. Fact is, the “typical behaviors” have changed over the past century to include many things that it didn’t used to. Transgendered people are asking to be included.

Being “normal” is a red herring in this regard. Again, if it doesn’t pick your pocket or break your leg, what do you care?

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Posted: 22 January 2012 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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ExMachina - 22 January 2012 02:48 AM

Actually Macgyver, I got mixed in the wash of the other posts that I didn’t get a chance to fully read yours, but I wanted to say that I can agree to that possibility to some degree. Maybe something in their chemistry makes their behavior emulate their preferred gender that could be argued as being the same mind, but as for the girl scouts, I’m not thinking on the interest of the TG as much as I’m looking at the interests of the girl scouts. They may just not feel comfortable with having a boy in their troop. Regardless of their mental status, a TG boy is still in fact a boy.

I’m not suggesting that something in the brains of these people makes them “emulate” their preferred gender. I’m saying that if there were someway to disembody the brains of these people and the brains of “normal” people and then communicate and interact with them honestly you may be unable to tell the difference between a genetic female and a transgendered female. I think there is a very good chance that the biological modifications that make a female brain female can happen to a brain whether its in a male body or a female body. Its only my opinion and there is no way to prove it, but i think from what we know already there is a strong possibility that this is the case. Regardless of whether we can ever prove it I think it makes sense to give these people the benefit of the doubt since as doug has said it doesn’t “pick our pocket or break our leg”

As far as the girl scouts not being comfortable with this I think we need to look at that critically. Who in the girl scouts isn’t comfortable with it? Is it the kids or the parents. Kids can be very open minded when they are given an appropriate example by the adults around them. People’s prejudices generally come from the adults. Maybe this would be a good opportunity for the parents to learn some sensitivity and teach tolerance to their children. My guess is that the whole thing arose because these adults like many others have preconceived ideas about what GID is and are making moral judgements which unfortunately are being transmitted to the children.

I’m not suggesting that the girl scouts be forced to include TG children in their organization if its a private organization and doesn’t accept public funds and I’m not suggesting that everyone has to feel comfortable with treating a TG woman as a woman. To be honest, even if I were single, I don’t think I could ever date such an individual myself, but they have the right to live their life the way they choose, and these situations provide a good opportunity to educate the public and break down prejudices and misinformation.

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Posted: 22 January 2012 06:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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macgyver - 22 January 2012 06:40 AM

To be honest, even if I were single, I don’t think I could ever date such an individual myself, but they have the right to live their life the way they choose, and these situations provide a good opportunity to educate the public and break down prejudices and misinformation.

Exactly. The question as to whether one would want to date a transgendered person is another red herring. It’s like suggesting that if you’re in favor of gay marriage you’d have to want to marry a gay person yourself.

There are lots and lots of perfectly “normal” women who I wouldn’t want to date or marry, either. That doesn’t mean I think they shouldn’t have the right to date or marry someone like me, if they want to!

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Posted: 22 January 2012 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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dougsmith - 22 January 2012 05:55 AM

Many would say so is being homosexual or atheist. So is being disabled. If you are talking statistically, so is being Jewish or italian american. Fact is, the “typical behaviors” have changed over the past century to include many things that it didn’t used to. Transgendered people are asking to be included.

Exactly, homosexuality and Atheism are not normal behaviors/beliefs in society. Whether a person finds these to be wrong is at their own discretion. I made no assertion to the rights or wrong on whether being a transgender was right/wrong in my statement.

dougsmith - 22 January 2012 05:55 AM

Being “normal” is a red herring in this regard. Again, if it doesn’t pick your pocket or break your leg, what do you care

That’s just it! It never bothered me if a person wanted to live their life as a transgender/transsexual, my only point was, I don’t want them forcing their beliefs and expecting me to agree with them. If I see further evidence that proves me wrong, then I have no problem adapting to the better information, but as of yet, I see none that makes me believe otherwis. Mid Atlantic understood what I was saying, why haven’t you?

[ Edited: 23 January 2012 01:24 AM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 23 January 2012 02:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:52 PM

TG will never have a normal life because it is a disorder.

`
Please, do yourself (and everyone who comes in contact with) a favour by not making hyperbolic assertions as though they’re fact.

You have absolutely NO idea what you’re talking about when it comes to your above comment.  The only thing it reflects is your own opinion.

Have you offered anything to support your assertion?
no.

Honestly, unless you are a transgender person, you can’t make any assertions about whether or not they can live a “normal life”.  Piece of advice:  why don’t you talk to a transgender person to see if your cavalier assertions are true?

P.S. I’m still waiting for a response to my point about women-who-lack-reproductive-parts.

`

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Posted: 23 January 2012 02:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Regardless of their mental status, a TG boy is still in fact a boy.

`
All I can say is…...your ignorance regarding this entire issue is staggering.

Gender identity is a far more complex issue than your simplistic hyperbole suggests.

Here’s a good start for you:

Godless Bitches - Transgender issues

`

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Posted: 23 January 2012 02:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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`
and dougsmith….....fab job in this thread :)


`

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Posted: 23 January 2012 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Quoting E.M. 

Exactly, homosexuality and Atheism are not normal behaviors/beliefs in society

  Sorry, E.M., but I believe you are using the wrong word or are defining it incorrectly.  Rather than normal, I think you mean something like “average”, “median”, or “Majority”.  By your use of the word, “normal”, it would seem that you would say that anyone with an IQ of over, say, 116 (one standard deviation away from average) is not normal.  Or anyone who is below the age of ten or over the age of seventy is not normal since they are only minorities of our society.

Occam

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Posted: 24 January 2012 01:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Axegrrl - 23 January 2012 02:44 AM

`
and dougsmith….....fab job in this thread smile


`

I second the motion.

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Posted: 24 January 2012 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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I hadn’t been involved in this thread, but I finally downloaded it, read it at my leisure and responded to most of E-M’s posts.  Rather than putting up three pages here (and violate my succinctness view) I’ll PM them to him and see if he wants to respond to any of them as posts.

Occam

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