asanta - 24 January 2012 01:45 AM

Axegrrl - 23 January 2012 02:44 AM

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and dougsmith….....fab job in this thread

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I second the motion.

Please people. Let’s do our best to retain our dignity and not turn this place into club suck up.

Now, now, E-M. since they agree with Doug’s posts it’s to be expected that they compliment him.  If people agreed with your points you could expect them to compliment you. 

Occam

ExMachina - 24 January 2012 04:34 PM

Please people. Let’s do our best to retain our dignity and not turn this place into club suck up.

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Right.  Two fleeting compliments = ‘suck up’

*rolling eyes*

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Occam. - 24 January 2012 11:20 PM

Now, now, E-M. since they agree with Doug’s posts it’s to be expected that they compliment him.  If people agreed with your points you could expect them to compliment you.  :)

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*teehee*  I almost added that very sentiment to my last post ;)

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Occam. - 24 January 2012 11:20 PM

Now, now, E-M. since they agree with Doug’s posts it’s to be expected that they compliment him.  If people agreed with your points you could expect them to compliment you. 

Occam

Well… Occam I could hardly imagine that these opinions aren’t without the slightest bit of bias, and considering the nature of this radical thinking, I’d be hard pressed to believe that these compliments would be as abundant in the real world.

So the question is! what have we learned here….

A boy who has the gender identity of a girl, should have the right to partake in all “women only” activities.

I disagree with this, therefore, I must be a hateful, intolorant, gay bashing, neonazi.

I can hardly take these opinions seriously.

FWIW I think it would be possible to have a compassionate, reasoned debate about the pluses and minuses of allowing transgendered people to partake in given activities of their chosen gender. The issue isn’t so much the debate as the attitude.

ExMachina - 25 January 2012 04:58 AM

A boy who has the gender identity of a girl, should have the right to partake it all womenly activities.

I don’t think I can agree with this. Such a person should not be allowed to compete in female sports, for example.

George - 25 January 2012 05:33 AM

ExMachina - 25 January 2012 04:58 AM

A boy who has the gender identity of a girl, should have the right to partake it all womenly activities.

I don’t think I can agree with this. Such a person should not be allowed to compete in female sports, for example.

This is what my point is ultimately leading to. Where does it stop?

All the rest Doug was your assumptions going haywire. The more you assumed, the greater I pushed.

ExMachina - 25 January 2012 05:44 AM

All the rest Doug was your assumptions going haywire. The more you assumed, the greater I pushed.

I don’t think so. You were doing an awful lot of ‘pushing’ long before I got here.

dougsmith - 25 January 2012 05:57 AM

ExMachina - 25 January 2012 05:44 AM

All the rest Doug was your assumptions going haywire. The more you assumed, the greater I pushed.

I don’t think so. You were doing an awful lot of ‘pushing’ long before I got here.

There were a lot of assumers before you got there.

Edit

Doug I understand that you’ve spent a life on studying philosophy and debating, but I’ve come to realize one big thing about the nature of people. They love to hate the bad guy. There comes a point where it doesn’t matter what I say, because you’ll always look for the things I’ve said that you disagree with on the way I’ve said it.

I believe the main problem is that the posts quickly became polarized and extreme.  E-M stated his ideas in a strong manner which encouraged others to attack his views.  He defended himself even more strongly, then both sides got rather snarky, and the discussion shifted from facts to more personal. 

After reading the whole thread from the beginning I saw balanced data with good points on both sides.  All I can suggest is that everyone cool it and try to understand the reasoning of the other side to see if you can find any ideas with which you can agree.

Occam

Occam. - 25 January 2012 08:24 PM

I believe the main problem is that the posts quickly became polarized and extreme.  E-M stated his ideas in a strong manner which encouraged others to attack his views.  He defended himself even more strongly, then both sides got rather snarky, and the discussion shifted from facts to more personal. 

After reading the whole thread from the beginning I saw balanced data with good points on both sides.  All I can suggest is that everyone cool it and try to understand the reasoning of the other side to see if you can find any ideas with which you can agree.

Occam

Actually, I agree. My points became more extreme the more I felt everyone elses points became extreme. I can agree on one major thing on their side. TG should not be treated with a any level of disrespect due to their lifestyle. A way a person chooses to live (so long that it doesn’t hurt another) should not be discriminated against.

My opinion differs in that I don’t think that a TG’s opinion of their sex (or believed rights) should have to be my own. Just because a person says they are a man in a womans body, doesn’t mean that I should have to agree. That is not to say that I don’t agree that a TG as they please, so long that it doesn’t hurt any or affect others in a negative way (less the others bigotry).

Thx Occam

Emach

Btw
I’ll try to go through the pm that you sent and respond to your points. Just to let you know that I’m not ignoring your posts.

Sorry i’m late to the thread, i might have missed this in the other 6 pages, but I’d like to understand a little more of it.

E-M; Gender is generally a social construction, there are parts of the world where there are third genders. In modern society, we’re seeing an abstraction of this; where typically, gender is thought of as being tied directly to sex, that’s not necessarily the case anymore. Hence, Transgender discussions and the acceptability of such in social situations.

So i have a few questions;

Why is the vagina the isolating factor in this discussion? Why is whether a person has a penis or not a qualifier for the group—and how do you enforce this?
Whats your views on people like Jazz, who commit fully to their chosen gender? http://jezebel.com/5862815/meet-jazz-an-impressive-11+year-old-transgender-girl
Whats your thoughts on people who have 5a-dht deficiency as a fetus, so have the gear and tackle of a man with the neural structure of women?

Also, i’m not sure, but I think in general, when talking about transgendered people, you refer to the chosen gender rather than the sex. Its like that in transhuman rpg, i would think that would relate to real life too. I could be wrong, and i might actually agree with you—that a transgendered boy should not be in girl scouts, because that child hasn’t chosen to be acknowledged as a girl, but as a boy instead.

Still, i think limitation on such children’s activities is wrong regardless of the social stipulations you try to stick to it. The goals of these groups should be attempting to teach skill, creativity, survival and fairness, and discrimination doesn’t lend itself to any of these goals. But that’s my opinion.

Sorry in advance Scndthe2nd, because I’m going to break down your posts to best answer your question.

Why is the vagina the isolating factor in this discussion? Why is whether a person has a penis or not a qualifier for the group—and how do you enforce this?

If you ask that question then you have to ask, “why is a penis the only reason a man can’t join women’s sports?” It’s not just the penis, but the entire physiology of a man differs from a womans.

Whats your views on people like Jazz, who commit fully to their chosen gender? http://jezebel.com/5862815/meet-jazz-an-impressive-11+year-old-transgender-girl

It makes no difference to me how a person wants to live their lives, so long as it doesn’t hurt another person. I don’t think it would be fair of Jazz (when 18+ years old) to lure men into a sexual relationship, only to reveal later that he is really a boy.

Whats your thoughts on people who have 5a-dht deficiency as a fetus, so have the gear and tackle of a man with the neural structure of women?

This is where the ambiguity of gender becomes even more skewed. I appreciate just how complicated this all can get. This is one where I say let the true sex of the person reign and though. Earlier someone tried to bring up the argument of the hermaphrodite, butI won’t argue the point, because it isn’t relevant to the transgender argument.

Also, i’m not sure, but I think in general, when talking about transgendered people, you refer to the chosen gender rather than the sex. Its like that in transhuman rpg, i would think that would relate to real life too. I could be wrong, and i might actually agree with you—that a transgendered boy should not be in girl scouts, because that child hasn’t chosen to be acknowledged as a girl, but as a boy instead.

Thinking in that way gets you a witch hunt against you on this board.

Still, i think limitation on such children’s activities is wrong regardless of the social stipulations you try to stick to it. The goals of these groups should be attempting to teach skill, creativity, survival and fairness, and discrimination doesn’t lend itself to any of these goals. But that’s my opinion.

I agree with teaching people acceptance, but I disagree with this group when it comes to special treatment for certain people due to their lifestyle choices.

Axegrrl - 21 January 2012 06:01 PM

ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:28 PM

Even if you can make it look like a vagina it still lacks the ovaries, uterus, and he still would never be capable of giving birth.

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So….?

There are TONS of women-born-women who have aforementioned reproductive parts removed at some point in their lives ~ are you suggesting that they’re not women because they now lack that equipment?

`

A womens entire physiology is what makes a person a woman, not just the genitalia. Even if a man can chop his penis up to make it looks like a womens vagina, the rest of his body still remains a man.