2 of 31
2
Is Atheism a Dodge?
Posted: 10 February 2012 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5487
Joined  2010-06-16

Quoting Egor:

I’m not a good person and would not be if God were not watching. That’s for sure.

I feel sorry for you, Egor, if you feel so evil that you have to have a god as your prison guard.

But one thing I know about you—you’re not good either. You say you are, but I know you’re not, because no one is. Everyone has faults and failings. But if atheism is true, you’re faults and failings don’t mean a hill of beans.

I make errors and have done things I’m not happy with, but this just strengthens my resolve to do better and to work to repair any damage I may have caused.  Your failings and faults may not mean a hill of beans to you, and that’s unfortunate, Egor.  The awareness of that must be quite distressing to you.

And here’s another thing I know, that you know as well but won’t admit to, if atheism is true, we have no immortal soul.

WHAT!!!  Of course I know and am quite willing to declare that I have no soul, immortal or mortal - I have a mind and I don’t confuse that with this mythical “soul” as you do.

Even if we have a soul, if atheism is true, it dissipates upon the death of the brain,

Quite true, except that there’s nothing to dissipate.

and everything it’s about, and everything it was worth, and all it’s value dissipates with it.

Wrong.  All that I’ve done to help others remains with them, and that is of continuing value that may spread widely but doesn’t dissipate.
===
By the way, Everyday Atheist, I think the reason Egor hasn’t responded to your question about “two-way communication” requires him to admit auditory delusions. smile
===
Occam

[ Edited: 10 February 2012 06:06 PM by Occam. ]
 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  102
Joined  2012-01-07
The Everyday Atheist - 10 February 2012 04:45 PM

Two-way communication with God? Could you please elaborate on this a bit?

Anyone who prays but does not receive a reply from God is no different than someone calling out on a HAM radio night after night and never getting a response. They’re wasting their time. God speaks to us in many ways.

Occam. - 10 February 2012 05:39 PM

Boy, you have no understanding of how other people think, do you, Egor? 

I’m pretty sure I do.

As a lifelong atheist I have to have stronger morals that god-believers because if I do something unethical, I can’t be forgiven by some fairytale in the sky - I have to work to make restitution myself and avoid doing it again.

See, that’s just it: You don’t. And even if you do, so what? You might choose to do that, but there’s no requirement for it. There’s no ultimate judgment if you do or don ‘t. If atheism is true, you will be annihilated at death. All the people you wrong in life will follow you a short time thereafter. Dust to dust. No score is kept.

When I was young I developed my own purposes and goals.  One of these is to help others whenever I can and to avoid hurting others if possible. 

Good for you, but if atheism is true, you could have chosen to be a mass murderer and it wouldn’t have made any more of a difference. A lot of people would have thought you were bad, but so what? They’re just waiting to become worm food when they annihilate at death. In fact, you’re an atheist, so you already have a lot of people who think you are bad—a lot of people. Atheists are a very ill-thought of group in society. So, what makes you moral? Does my opinion of you make you moral?

I realize that when I die, my mind will disappear and my body decay.  However, I’ll die happy, knowing that I’ve left humanity and the world a tiny bit better than it would have been had I not been born.

So what? If atheism is true, and you will decay, everyone else will be following you relatively shortly and they will decay, and the people who are alive in generations to come won’t thank you, because you won’t exist, and you won’t care about them, because you won’t even know them—you’ll know nothing. I don’t sit around thinking about my great grandfather. I never even knew him.

 

And, why should I welcome annihilation?  I know it’s inevitable, but it just means that someone else will pick up where I left off.

Again, so what? Or maybe you’ll build a school for handicap kids and it will be turned into a police station where legal waterboarding takes place on those who are not politically correct. And if so, so what? You won’t know about it.

You may put a lot into the world—but you don’t have to. And that’s my point.

 

Thevillageatheist - 10 February 2012 05:43 PM

Are you saying that after all this time you still haven’t discovered your purpose in life? Are you still seeking a purpose or have you stopped and are waiting for Yahweh the mountain god to direct you? If you’re still fervently looking be advised that you will eventually outgrow religion and once that happens you will never be able to return to the security of that imaginary world. You will exhaust every argument in your philosophical arsenal to bolster your belief and finally resign yourself to the truth; you’re gonna die and that’ll be the end of ya so accomplish what you can in the only life you’ve been given by nature and be happy to be a part of it all. Tempus Fugit.

Why accomplish what I can? Why not just eat all the junk food I want, get really fat, play World of Warcraft, piss off as many people as I can, use hookers for sex, rob banks for money, do any drug I can get away with, and laugh at Christians in public? And while I’m at it, why not see if I can break the record for numbers of people killed by one serial killer?

I would like to know from an atheist perspective why I shouldn’t do those things, assuming I can get away with them? Or will your whole argument be that if I have to ask, I’m apparently missing parts that atheists are born with?

[ Edited: 10 February 2012 06:12 PM by Egor ]
 Signature 

Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 06:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  102
Joined  2012-01-07
Occam. - 10 February 2012 06:02 PM

By the way, Everyday Atheist, I think the reason Egor hasn’t responded to your question about “two-way communication” requires him to admit auditory delusions. smile
===
Occam

Oh yeah, you’re so inherently moral aren’t you? You just have morality built in to your genes, don’t you? That’s why you immediately—immediately—resort to ad hominem attacks, against the very rules of the forum you moderate, just as soon as you are challenged by a theist.

Like I said, the one thing I know is you’re not good, because no one is. The difference between you and I is that I know I’m not, and I don’t delude myself.

 Signature 

Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5487
Joined  2010-06-16

I’m pretty sure I do.

  Wow, your “answers” to each of my points demonstrate quite clearly that you really DON’T have the vaguest understanding of how I and most humanist atheists think. 

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 06:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1201
Joined  2009-05-10
Egor - 10 February 2012 05:45 PM
dougsmith - 10 February 2012 12:27 PM

But on one thing you’re wrong: the “welcome annihilation” comes with those who accept the fairy tales, which promise them ... what, it’s not entirely clear. But anyway lots of vague, confused stories about what a great place heaven is. If it’s a great place, I assume you welcome it.

I welcome heaven; I don’t welcome annihilation, but atheists must welcome it. What would be the alternative? An eternal life? In a chaotic, purposeless universe? Unless you could eventually transform into God, that would be a good description of hell.

Maybe annihilation would be welcome if I were suffering with no end in sight, but as I am not, I have no reason to want to stop living and every reason to want to keep living. I’m not sure what eternal life has to do with this. It is not a possibility. Death is the end.

domokato - 10 February 2012 12:30 PM

You are wrong.

No inherent purpose in life doesn’t mean we can’t give it our own purpose and therefore our own pressure.

How can you give yourself a purpose?

Set a goal and try to achieve it (start a family, help others, invent something, run for office)? Try to live up to a certain standard?

Either you have a purpose or you don’t. You could pretend to have a purpose, but that would be kind of pathetic and hypocritical if you were an atheist.

That’s a bit insulting. Purpose is not some mystical concept that cannot be grasped by non-believers. It’s pretty straightforward. You’re just wrapped up in the idea that purpose must be God-given. That’s just what your bible says. Try to step outside of it for once.

And even if you do put yourself under a self-imposed pressure, you certainly have no requirement to. That would be like auditing a college course and doing everything you could to get an A in it.

You don’t have a requirement to God either. You can do whatever you want. What’s the difference?

One reason you might audit a college course and try to get an A is to ensure that you learn the material. It’s not like the grade is the only thing that matters. In this analogy, it’s not like God is the only thing that matters, or could matter.

Wouldn’t death be more welcome for you since you get to go to heaven?

Atheism is not the easy way out. You cease to exist when you die. You have to actually think about what’s moral and what’s not. There is no reference book you can use to guide your life. You have to come to terms with uncertainty. How the hell is it a dodge to face reality head-on rather than hide in the comfort of the good book?

Because you don’t have to have any morality. You can be moral if you want to be, but if atheism is true, there’s no real reason to be moral unless you can benefit from it somehow during your physical life. If you were like Mother Teresa, fine, so long as it benefited you. If you were like John Wayne Gaycee, fine. It really doesn’t matter because it’s all dust to dust anyway.

I’m not saying you’re not a generally moral person; I’m saying if atheism is true, you don’t have to be. And if you are, there’s no “higher” state of being in that. Because it’s just a chaotic universe with no one watching.

In the end, doesn’t it all boil down to individual choice? You don’t have to be moral because God tells you to either. It’s up to you. Maybe you’re moral because of your religion. Maybe I’m moral because I want to live in a moral society. We don’t have to be moral, but we both choose to, just for different reasons.

Some atheists could be moral just because they feel like it. Reason does not enter into it.

And for those atheists that are not moral, I don’t have to sit idly by and let them do whatever they want. Even though my morals are not grounded in absolutes, I can still condemn their behavior as immoral. I see morality as a social contract meant to ensure a smoothly functioning society. If you break the contract, you must face the consequences. If you do not agree to the contract, maybe find somewhere else to live. This is kind of a gray area, but life is full of them. The certainty of religious moral code does not tempt me one bit, as it is based on nothing empirical and cannot change with new data.

George - 10 February 2012 12:56 PM

I think people who believe that without a god we would be a mere conscious dirt, are better off believing their fairy tales. From a personal experience as a father and a human being, I believe that children and Christians sometimes need a dose of naïveté to compensate for their failed (or not yet fully developed in children) moral compass.

Oh, you’re quite right. I’m not a good person and would not be if God were not watching. That’s for sure.

This claim again. I don’t buy that you’re not a good person. I think the vast majority of humans are moral creatures most of the time, by virtue of our evolutionary history. We are a highly cooperative species. I would only buy that if you were a sociopath, but I don’t think a sociopath would be devout in the first place, except as a cover. I think you were just taught that humans are evil by nature, by your book, and therefore without religion you are evil. Well, without your religion there’s also no reason to think that humans are evil by nature.

 Signature 

“What people do is they confuse cynicism with skepticism. Cynicism is ‘you can’t change anything, everything sucks, there’s no point to anything.’ Skepticism is, ‘well, I’m not so sure.’” -Bill Nye

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3057
Joined  2011-08-15

Why accomplish what I can? Why not just eat all the junk food I want, get really fat, play World of Warcraft, piss off as many people as I can, use hookers for sex, rob banks for money, do any drug I can get away with, and laugh at Christians in public? And while I’m at it, why not see if I can break the record for numbers of people killed by one serial killer?

I would like to know from an atheist perspective why I shouldn’t do those things, assuming I can get away with them? Or will your whole argument be that if I have to ask, I’m apparently missing parts that atheists are born with?

What an exceptionally childish notion! Is this what you call acomplishment? What are you a teenager living in Mom’s basement with snacks and an x-box? This is the type of answer I’d expect from one of my students, emotional and illogical. Do you think that being a christian prevents you from doing “nasty things” like that? First of all, check the prison records and you’ll find more so called christians there than atheists. Secondly, if your contention is true then we wouldn’t be here anyway because our non christian (that’s the people who were here before jesus showed up) ancestors would have hedonistically killed themselves off by running amuck overeating and serial killing. And yes, it’s in your genetic make up ( consult a high school science book hidden just behind your bag of Fritos), and while we’re at it, you’re the one whose running down atheists who no longer believe in your fairy tale world. Come up out of that basement now and pick up a book, several to be exact, not the floppy one. Put that one back behind the snacks.


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1201
Joined  2009-05-10
Egor - 10 February 2012 06:07 PM

Why accomplish what I can? Why not just eat all the junk food I want, get really fat, play World of Warcraft, piss off as many people as I can, use hookers for sex, rob banks for money, do any drug I can get away with, and laugh at Christians in public? And while I’m at it, why not see if I can break the record for numbers of people killed by one serial killer?

I would like to know from an atheist perspective why I shouldn’t do those things, assuming I can get away with them? Or will your whole argument be that if I have to ask, I’m apparently missing parts that atheists are born with?

Because none of that stuff is healthy, fulfilling, or good for society? You don’t seriously need a book to tell you that, do you? You have these things called instincts, and these other things called life experiences, and these other things called feelings, like regret, satisfaction, accomplishment, guilt, etc. And you have your reasoning abilities. Just because you haven’t thought about how to live life from an atheist’s perspective doesn’t mean it must be vapid and hedonistic.

Why not rob banks and kill people? At the very least, because there are laws against it! And real consequences! But mostly because it’s just plain wrong! That is such a ridiculous thing to say…

 Signature 

“What people do is they confuse cynicism with skepticism. Cynicism is ‘you can’t change anything, everything sucks, there’s no point to anything.’ Skepticism is, ‘well, I’m not so sure.’” -Bill Nye

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 07:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3985
Joined  2010-08-15

Egor,
Occam get’s my vote.  Love the way he explains it. 


The way I see it…
We are given a precious blessed moment to experience this life.
Atheist appreciate this is it and enjoy and work it to the best of our abilities as they may be.
Since, yes me, myself and I will be annihilated when the last breath passes my lips - well and what I manage to leave behind for others…. thoughts, deeds, memories and materials.

What’s wrong with that?

Trying to imagine that this very moment isn’t as sacred as it get’s is like hugging a teddy bear. 
May feel cuddly but no substance to it.


Besides, the fixation on God, seems to me, the biggest and worst of self obsessed ego trips.

peace & love   kiss

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7661
Joined  2008-04-11

Egor, according to your beliefs, if you were to commit a heinous crime, and ask your ‘god’ for forgiveness, that is all that is needed for redemption. There is no need to address the actually people wronged, because you have ‘found Jesus’, and can now go to ‘heaven’ no matter how horrible the crime.

Were I to do something heinous, I would have to live with that fact. There is no ‘get out of jail free’ cop out for me. I would have to address and recompense the actual victim of the crime I have committed to be able to live with myself, and not throw words at an imaginary being. I would have to accept the consequences and pay the cost myself.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15343
Joined  2006-02-14
Egor - 10 February 2012 05:45 PM

I welcome heaven; I don’t welcome annihilation, but atheists must welcome it. What would be the alternative? An eternal life? In a chaotic, purposeless universe? Unless you could eventually transform into God, that would be a good description of hell.

It would be great to have eternal life if one could live interestingly, pain free, happily: the way many of us live our lives today.

Heaven, OTOH, is a child’s fantasy. What is it? An eternity spent contemplating God? How much more boring could you get? LOL

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  191
Joined  2010-10-09

No, of course atheism isn’t a Dodge. Religion is a Dodge. Or a Ford. Atheism is, let’s see…... a 1929 4.5-litre Le Mans blower Bentley, perhaps? Or a Bugatti Royale? A 1956 Aston Martin DB3? A ‘52 12-cylinder Chrysler-engined Allard J2X? It’s whatever you want it to be - but real class, anyway.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 11:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2631
Joined  2011-04-24

Why accomplish what I can? Why not just eat all the junk food I want, get really fat, play World of Warcraft, piss off as many people as I can, use hookers for sex, rob banks for money, do any drug I can get away with, and laugh at Christians in public? And while I’m at it, why not see if I can break the record for numbers of people killed by one serial killer?

I would like to know from an atheist perspective why I shouldn’t do those things, assuming I can get away with them? Or will your whole argument be that if I have to ask, I’m apparently missing parts that atheists are born with?

My atheism does help me to be a better drug user and bank robber;it does not help me get hookers or be a good video gamer however,I need religion for that. I’m joking. LOL Quite frankly,it does seem odd (to a non theist) to ask why should a person give a crap about anything if there is no God. The best answer I can give is: the motivation comes from within;your own biochemistry interacting with your surroundings.I want to accomplish things because I have some drive to accomplish them,even though I realize that ultimately my accomplishments are absurdly meaningless in the whole scheme of things. My “morals” are subjective and selfish,but they work good enough for me;it’s not possible to do every and anything you want without all hell breaking loose. If I went around killing and raping at will,it’s guaranteed that some others will do the same to me,and my life would become so chaotic that it would be ruined. Morality without God can be understood as simply trying to keep chaos in check.

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 11:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2631
Joined  2011-04-24
Theflyingsorcerer - 10 February 2012 10:39 PM

No, of course atheism isn’t a Dodge. Religion is a Dodge. Or a Ford. Atheism is, let’s see…... a 1929 4.5-litre Le Mans blower Bentley, perhaps? Or a Bugatti Royale? A 1956 Aston Martin DB3? A ‘52 12-cylinder Chrysler-engined Allard J2X? It’s whatever you want it to be - but real class, anyway.

Theflyingsorcerer.

LOL

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  102
Joined  2012-01-07
citizenschallenge.pm - 10 February 2012 07:30 PM

Egor,
Occam get’s my vote.  Love the way he explains it. 


The way I see it…
We are given a precious blessed moment to experience this life.


Really? Who gave it to you? And what good is experiencing life that is not eternal? Seriously, if it’s not eternal, then it’s nothing but loss. If you can’t see that, then you need to think more deeply about it.

 

Atheist appreciate this is it and enjoy and work it to the best of our abilities as they may be.
Since, yes me, myself and I will be annihilated when the last breath passes my lips - well and what I manage to leave behind for others…. thoughts, deeds, memories and materials.

What’s wrong with that?

What’s good about it? If everyone is simply annihilated at death, and eventually the human race will die off—it has too—what’s good about anything you do or leave behind? This is what I will never get about atheists:

They absolutely refuse to look at the implications of their belief system.

 Signature 

Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 February 2012 11:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  102
Joined  2012-01-07
Thevillageatheist - 10 February 2012 06:54 PM

What an exceptionally childish notion! Is this what you call acomplishment? What are you a teenager living in Mom’s basement with snacks and an x-box? This is the type of answer I’d expect from one of my students, emotional and illogical. Do you think that being a christian prevents you from doing “nasty things” like that? First of all, check the prison records and you’ll find more so called christians there than atheists. Secondly, if your contention is true then we wouldn’t be here anyway because our non christian (that’s the people who were here before jesus showed up) ancestors would have hedonistically killed themselves off by running amuck overeating and serial killing. And yes, it’s in your genetic make up ( consult a high school science book hidden just behind your bag of Fritos), and while we’re at it, you’re the one whose running down atheists who no longer believe in your fairy tale world. Come up out of that basement now and pick up a book, several to be exact, not the floppy one. Put that one back behind the snacks.


Cap’t Jack

I notice you can’t address the point so you attempt an academic bullying in place of admitting ignorance. Fine. But trust me, you’re not talking to one of your students.

 Signature 

Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 31
2