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Is Atheism a Dodge?
Posted: 14 February 2012 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 196 ]
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macgyver - 14 February 2012 03:40 PM

Seems to me that’s just “thinking”. I pose a question to myself. I think about it and turn it around in my head and you discover the answer. I do all the work and I’m supposed to give credit to some all powerful being who’s too shy to even show his face. Seriously, why should i think anything except my own thoughts and reasoning came up with the answer? The answer is I shouldn’t. The simplest answer is usually the correct one. I came up with the answer. Not some being that violates every observation I;ve ever made of the world around me.

Well, for you, that is exactly what’s going on. You’re not talking to God and God is not talking to you. You are, after all, an atheist. When you’re not an atheist anymore and you’re developing your prayer life, then we can talk about differentiating the self from the voice of God. Prayer 101.

And what happens when your prayers are not answered. Do we just conveniently not count those? You can’t have it both ways. If having your prayers answered is proof of god than having them ignored ( which I’m guessing is most of the time) has to be proof positive that he doesnt exist. Oh well. Maybe god was out that day and forgot to check his messages

If you’re going to be sarcastic, don’t expect a response. It makes you sound like an idiot. You’re the one coming to me. I’m not coming to you.

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Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

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Posted: 14 February 2012 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 197 ]
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Egor - 14 February 2012 04:09 PM

And yet, ironically, to shut yourself off to mystical experiences leaves you wondering the “why” of everything. It leaves you cold in a chaotic universe. It withers your soul. These are the facts of life.

No, the fact of life is that a mystic looks like a fool in the real world.

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Posted: 14 February 2012 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 198 ]
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Write4U - 14 February 2012 04:08 PM

Egor - 14 February 2012 01:52 PM
God does exist. And if what I’m saying is false, how could it ever be believed?

Why do you think you have such trouble convincing us?

Because you want to be an atheist. There’s no need to complicate it. Look: This string has had 2100 views or so, 180+ comments. We have yet to have a serious discussion about the existence of God. Now God isn’t going to be proved, not in this world. But the evidence is such that it is rational to believe in God rather than to not. Once one does believe, then the mystical experiences open up and they come not only to believe but to understand and know. God could have made it harder you know. He could have made it so it’s not rational at all.

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Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

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Posted: 14 February 2012 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 199 ]
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Egor - 14 February 2012 04:21 PM

And what happens when your prayers are not answered. Do we just conveniently not count those? You can’t have it both ways. If having your prayers answered is proof of god than having them ignored ( which I’m guessing is most of the time) has to be proof positive that he doesnt exist. Oh well. Maybe god was out that day and forgot to check his messages

If you’re going to be sarcastic, don’t expect a response. It makes you sound like an idiot. You’re the one coming to me. I’m not coming to you.

I suppose its better to sound like one than to actually be one. I can’t help the sarcasm though. You set yourself up for it with all these arguments that rent arguments at all They are simply statements of belief. Seriously though this is a huge problem with believers. They conveniently show off the rare times when god has “listened to them” and then forget all the other times the line seemed to be down and he totally ignored them. You cant have it both ways.

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Posted: 14 February 2012 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 200 ]
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I still want to know if Poseidon exists if it can be believed that he exists.

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Posted: 14 February 2012 04:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 201 ]
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Egor - 14 February 2012 04:31 PM
Write4U - 14 February 2012 04:08 PM

Egor - 14 February 2012 01:52 PM
God does exist. And if what I’m saying is false, how could it ever be believed?

Why do you think you have such trouble convincing us?

Because you want to be an atheist. There’s no need to complicate it. Look: This string has had 2100 views or so, 180+ comments. We have yet to have a serious discussion about the existence of God. Now God isn’t going to be proved, not in this world. But the evidence is such that it is rational to believe in God rather than to not. Once one does believe, then the mystical experiences open up and they come not only to believe but to understand and know. God could have made it harder you know. He could have made it so it’s not rational at all.

And once again he speaks of evidence and provides none.

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Posted: 14 February 2012 04:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 202 ]
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Egor - 14 February 2012 04:21 PM
macgyver - 14 February 2012 03:40 PM

Seems to me that’s just “thinking”. I pose a question to myself. I think about it and turn it around in my head and you discover the answer. I do all the work and I’m supposed to give credit to some all powerful being who’s too shy to even show his face. Seriously, why should i think anything except my own thoughts and reasoning came up with the answer? The answer is I shouldn’t. The simplest answer is usually the correct one. I came up with the answer. Not some being that violates every observation I;ve ever made of the world around me.

Well, for you, that is exactly what’s going on. You’re not talking to God and God is not talking to you. You are, after all, an atheist. When you’re not an atheist anymore and you’re developing your prayer life, then we can talk about differentiating the self from the voice of God. Prayer 101.

And what happens when your prayers are not answered. Do we just conveniently not count those? You can’t have it both ways. If having your prayers answered is proof of god than having them ignored ( which I’m guessing is most of the time) has to be proof positive that he doesnt exist. Oh well. Maybe god was out that day and forgot to check his messages

If you’re going to be sarcastic, don’t expect a response. It makes you sound like an idiot. You’re the one coming to me. I’m not coming to you.

NO, you are coming to us with your claim that atheism is a dodge. You keep trying to turn the argument around with straw man ad hominems.
You’re the one that sounds like an idiot.  Dr. Macgyver is a “learned” fellow, you are a dillitante.

[ Edited: 14 February 2012 04:41 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 14 February 2012 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 203 ]
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Egor - 14 February 2012 04:31 PM
Write4U - 14 February 2012 04:08 PM

Egor - 14 February 2012 01:52 PM
God does exist. And if what I’m saying is false, how could it ever be believed?

Why do you think you have such trouble convincing us?

Because you want to be an atheist. There’s no need to complicate it. Look: This string has had 2100 views or so, 180+ comments. We have yet to have a serious discussion about the existence of God. Now God isn’t going to be proved, not in this world. But the evidence is such that it is rational to believe in God rather than to not. Once one does believe, then the mystical experiences open up and they come not only to believe but to understand and know. God could have made it harder you know. He could have made it so it’s not rational at all.

It is not complicated at all, you want to be a mystic with supernatural powers. We have indeed not had a serious discussion about the evidence or properties of a god. You refuse (don’t know) to provide any proof of his existence except a vague assertion that He speaks to you personally. But you have not provided “rational” evidence that god is necessary or that belief in a god is necessary.

If there is a god he has made it irrational to believe in him.  You arguments are all made from authority, but you fail to provide a single argument or evidence what this authority actually is or why it needs be (un)real.

As to this thread going on ad nauseum, is due to the generosity of the members to indulge your delusions. You see, we try to give everyone a fair chance to make their case. IMO, you have been afforded more than a casual generosity, but that is the moral nature of secular humanists and atheists, which in itself refutes your assertion that atheism is a dodge from moral responsibility.

[ Edited: 14 February 2012 05:09 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 14 February 2012 05:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 204 ]
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It’s OK Write. I dont take it personally. I’m not that thin skinned. Egor is in a world of his own. He presents statements of belief as though they are logical arguments and then chuckles to himself because he thinks we just don’t get it.

It really just comes down to this. Egor claims he has spoken to god. Fine. If he wants to believe that and has abandoned any thought that he might be delusional then that’s fine. Who are we to tell him what to believe. On the other hand, he seems to believe he has a logical argument and evidence for the existence of god yet time and again he provides neither. The very foundation upon which Egor’s beliefs rest are the very thing an atheist can never acquiesce to. An atheist will never give up their impulse to question and demand evidence because that’s what makes life meaningful and wondrous.

The quest to understand the universe is what makes life worth living. We do it through observation, reason, and logic. Egor does it by throwing all that out the window and instead having faith in an old dusty book, a disembodied voice, and some circular reasoning.

Egor if you were just honest and said “I have faith and this is what i believe” I could respect that to an extent, but to try and imply that there is a logic behind this by dragging out tired old ontological arguments and claiming that there is evidence that supports the existence of god is just laughable. Its really hard to take him seriously.

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Posted: 14 February 2012 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 205 ]
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George - 14 February 2012 04:35 PM

I still want to know if Poseidon exists if it can be believed that he exists.

Yeah. Did Poseidon really exist back when the ancient Greeks believed in him?

What about Xenu? Plenty of people believe in Xenu. Does Xenu exist?

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You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

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Posted: 14 February 2012 06:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 206 ]
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Egor - 14 February 2012 04:21 PM

If you’re going to be sarcastic, don’t expect a response. It makes you sound like an idiot. You’re the one coming to me. I’m not coming to you.

Last I checked, you came to our forum…

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Posted: 14 February 2012 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 207 ]
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DarronS - 14 February 2012 05:44 PM
George - 14 February 2012 04:35 PM

I still want to know if Poseidon exists if it can be believed that he exists.

Yeah. Did Poseidon really exist back when the ancient Greeks believed in him?

What about Xenu? Plenty of people believe in Xenu. Does Xenu exist?

Supposedly there are still people today who believe in the Greek gods. I remember Dawkins once said he had received a letter from some angry believers when he used a similar example to mine. Following Egor’s logic, then, Poseidon is still alive because people still believe in him.

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Posted: 14 February 2012 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 208 ]
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I went scuba diving once (@100+ ft) and experienced nitrogen narcosis. I swear I heard Poseidon talk to me and urge me to “just let go”, it took all my willpower to resist his siren call and rap my tank to warn my diving buddies all was not well. They took me up and saved my life. Do I believe in Poseidon? Naahhhhhhhh.

[ Edited: 14 February 2012 07:00 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 14 February 2012 08:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 209 ]
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I can’t decide if Egor is sincere or a ringmaster controlling a show. If sincere about the claim that traditional arguments are valid and indisputable, the book for him is Rebecca Goldstien’s 36 Arguments For the Existence of God. To save time and plunge directly into the meat of matters, the appendix is available instantly for free download (information included below). Egor thus has at hand the opportunity to instantly test for himself the validity of his claims. Note: the author includes a disclaimer that she refutes all 36—the title of the book is intended to lure the theist into objective examination of these faith claims to become acquainted with their inherent fallacies. The appendix is a handy little worksheet to accomplish just that.

appendix: 36 arguments for the existence of god
http://www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/authors/.../36 Arguments.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
appendix: 36 arguments for the existence of god. 1. The Cosmological Argument. 2. The Ontological Argument. 3. The Argument from Design. A. The Classical ...

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Posted: 14 February 2012 10:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 210 ]
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1984isnow,
If Egor was trying to be a ringmaster controlling the show, he came off more like the half time clown, bumbling, stumbling, tripping over his own words… LOL

I have the 36 arguments in my library, but he did not come close to presenting his arguments (which have been refuted in any case) in any coherent fashion.

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