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Is Atheism a Dodge?
Posted: 11 February 2012 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Egor - 11 February 2012 11:18 AM

QED. What if tommorrow, you decide you don’t want to? Then what was good today is bad tomorrow, and what was bad is good.

....and tell me...what is to prevent every ‘christian’ in the world from going on a rape/murder/robbery pillage, when they know that all they have to do is ‘accept Jesus into their hearts’ and ask for forgiveness to go to ‘heaven’.

I am good, because it is the right and ethical thing to do for the whole of society. I treat others as I would like to be treated….no threats needed or wanted. I am an adult, not a child looking for an invisible life parent. I developed my internal locus of control a LONG time ago.

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Posted: 11 February 2012 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM

You’re right, but there’s lots of evidence for the existence of God.

Please, show us the evidence.

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Posted: 11 February 2012 02:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM

Doesn’t it concern you that you are one of the only people in history and living today to have “realized” this “truth”? Do you really think you are that good?

Maybe I’m a trendsetter. Who knows?

Truth isn’t a trend. Fashion is.

While it’s possible you’ve discovered some hidden, baroque reality, there’s another possibility that’s much, much more likely.

Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM
dougsmith - 11 February 2012 12:35 PM

You shouldn’t do certain things because they are immoral, not because some powerful man in the sky is going to hurt you in some unfathomable way after you die. (Nor, for that matter, because you are going to be reincarnated into the soul of a toad or some such thing).

Immoral says who?

Morality doesn’t come from someone saying something is moral, anymore than laws of math or nature do.

Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM

We have no evidence of powerful men in the sky, just as we have no evidence of reincarnation. So adverting to them as the supposed solution to ethical problems is useless. One might as well say that Sauron will come and get you. Or the Joker.

You’re right, but there’s lots of evidence for the existence of God.

I don’t know of any. Or at any rate no good evidence.

Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM

If someone doesn’t care about morality, then there really is no reasoning with them. Then it’s best to lock them up for the safety of their neighbors. Fortunately we have governments and police forces who are at least somewhat good at this most of the time.

Morality says who? The law? People with guns and prison cells? Fine, just admit that is the basis of your morality. Might makes right. Then we can take the next step in the debate.

“Might makes right” is the motto of the theist who believes morality comes from the barrel of God’s gun. As I’ve just said, morality doesn’t come from someone’s say-so.

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Posted: 11 February 2012 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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DarronS - 11 February 2012 01:59 PM
Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM

You’re right, but there’s lots of evidence for the existence of God.

Please, show us the evidence.

Yeah. Did I miss something? He’s been going on and on for pages and now he tells us there’s actual evidence? Oh Boy, Is he really going to show it to us or is he just going to tell us another silly bedtime story?

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Posted: 11 February 2012 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Actually,might does make right - if someone is willing to take it that far,and there sure as sh** isn’t any God who will step in to save the victim(s). But,the fact that most of humanity does not take it that far is an example of the innate sense of very basic morality that we have. Obviously humanity has varying degrees on the “moral thermometer”,and there is often a need for force; does the lack of belief that we non theists have make us better at “policing” ourselves? Perhaps Egor,you really need God to police you. If so,then I salute your dedication to your self imposed faith.

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Posted: 11 February 2012 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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While “Might makes right” has the property of having a succinct glibness, might DOES NOT make right.  Might merely gives one the power to impose his/her will on others.  As Mid-At points out there is no god to step in and save the victims.  Rather, it’s usually moral humans who step in to prevent further abuses, and their various theological beliefs are almost never germane. 

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Posted: 11 February 2012 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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asanta - 11 February 2012 01:54 PM
Egor - 11 February 2012 11:18 AM

QED. What if tommorrow, you decide you don’t want to? Then what was good today is bad tomorrow, and what was bad is good.

....and tell me...what is to prevent every ‘christian’ in the world from going on a rape/murder/robbery pillage, when they know that all they have to do is ‘accept Jesus into their hearts’ and ask for forgiveness to go to ‘heaven’.

I am good, because it is the right and ethical thing to do for the whole of society. I treat others as I would like to be treated….no threats needed or wanted. I am an adult, not a child looking for an invisible life parent. I developed my internal locus of control a LONG time ago.

I can’t speak for Christians, but what stops me is the fact that God might give me eyeball cancer or something if I do those things. Especially if I did it with the intent of simply asking forgiveness for it later.

So, why are you so saintly? Were you born that way? Have you ever done a bad thing in your life?

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Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

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Posted: 11 February 2012 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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DarronS - 11 February 2012 01:59 PM
Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM

You’re right, but there’s lots of evidence for the existence of God.

Please, show us the evidence.

Ontological argument

Teleological argument

Cosmological Argument

Moral Argument

Argument from elegance

Argument from Instincts

And on and on and on…

But let me guess; even though some of the brightest philosophers in the world have presented these arguments, you know better, right?

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Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

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Posted: 11 February 2012 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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macgyver - 11 February 2012 02:47 PM

Yeah. Did I miss something? He’s been going on and on for pages and now he tells us there’s actual evidence? Oh Boy, Is he really going to show it to us or is he just going to tell us another silly bedtime story?

I haven’t been going on for pages; you all have. I’m simply responding to you.

Occam. - 11 February 2012 03:26 PM

While “Might makes right” has the property of having a succinct glibness, might DOES NOT make right.  Might merely gives one the power to impose his/her will on others.  As Mid-At points out there is no god to step in and save the victims.  Rather, it’s usually moral humans who step in to prevent further abuses, and their various theological beliefs are almost never germane. 

Occam

Okay; might does not make right. Then what does? Authority? There has to be some basis for what’s right, some good basis.

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Then Jesus said, “Do not let your hearts be troubled; you believe in God. Believe also in Me. (VGJC 44:17)

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Posted: 11 February 2012 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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Egor - 11 February 2012 03:59 PM
macgyver - 11 February 2012 02:47 PM

Yeah. Did I miss something? He’s been going on and on for pages and now he tells us there’s actual evidence? Oh Boy, Is he really going to show it to us or is he just going to tell us another silly bedtime story?

I haven’t been going on for pages; you all have. I’m simply responding to you.

Occam. - 11 February 2012 03:26 PM

While “Might makes right” has the property of having a succinct glibness, might DOES NOT make right.  Might merely gives one the power to impose his/her will on others.  As Mid-At points out there is no god to step in and save the victims.  Rather, it’s usually moral humans who step in to prevent further abuses, and their various theological beliefs are almost never germane. 

Occam

Okay; might does not make right. Then what does? Authority? There has to be some basis for what’s right, some good basis.

The basis is what works. What limits chaos.

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Posted: 11 February 2012 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Egor,
Okay; might does not make right. Then what does? Authority? There has to be some basis for what’s right, some good basis

Finally, a reasonable neutral statement and question. These are the questions secular humanists like to explore. If you read the tenets and goals of CFI (homepage) you will find many answers how to approach these questions. Discussions of those philosophical questions will surely bear more fruit in the long run as they are based on reason and scientific evidence and not on endless debates on the possible existence of a supernatural entity which cannot be proved or disproved with any degree of certainty.
There is no reason why man cannot live in harmony with nature, based on secular humanistic values. Much to learn still, but with knowledge comes maturity and wisdom.

IMO the ultimate Authority comes from Natural Laws (how the universe works) and all things, material and personal, are subject to these “neutral” forces. No exclusionary system will ever solve human existence, only recognition that Natural Law applies equally to all, regardless of beliefs in magical beings or imaginary hereafters. We are here, now. Let’s try and reason our way through the maze of life.

Reason alone will tell us that in order to live together in peace (morality) we must cooperate and judge people, not by their individual or organized beliefs, but by the content of their character. Something is good when history shows it is good. Atheists are not bad because they are atheists, theists are not good because they are theists. People are good or bad as evidenced by their actions. If we can start with that we have chosen the path to human civilization in harmony within our natural environment.

[ Edited: 11 February 2012 05:34 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 11 February 2012 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Egor - 11 February 2012 03:49 PM

... what stops me is the fact that God might give me eyeball cancer or something if I do those things.

Do we have any reason to believe that people who get cancer are evil? Do you think children who die of cancer are evil?

Do we have any reason to believe that evil people come to bad ends naturally?

The answer to these questions is an emphatic “No.”

Where then is your God?

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Posted: 11 February 2012 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Egor - 11 February 2012 03:52 PM
DarronS - 11 February 2012 01:59 PM
Egor - 11 February 2012 01:48 PM

You’re right, but there’s lots of evidence for the existence of God.

Please, show us the evidence.

Ontological argument

Teleological argument

Cosmological Argument

Never heard of the other ones, but these are known fallacious. Any that are not?

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Posted: 11 February 2012 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Egor,
You’re just dust to dust like me. In fact, you’re taking up natural resources that I could use to further my comfort, or at the least you have possessions I could take to enjoy my life better, and how dare you tell me I can’t do that? We’re just evolving animals right? The fittest survive, right?

How little you know of evolution. You make “popularized” statements which have no basis in fact. The evolution of species is not based on “survival of the fittest”, except perhaps at the most primitive level. Evolution of higher order species is through “natural selection”, which may come by mutual cooperation (as in herd animals), symbiosis (as in bees and flowering plants), respect for your environment (as in not killing or destroying things that are beneficial to your existence).

A natural morality emerges with all higher species. It must or they perish, not from the wrath of god, but from the immutable universal law of cause and effect.  I do not dispute that religious scriptures identify some of these instances of cause and effect (metaphorically), but that has nothing to do with the existence of a god or gods. The facts of reality remain, regardless of what you believe is the ultimate causality.

[ Edited: 11 February 2012 06:37 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 11 February 2012 06:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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dougsmith - 11 February 2012 05:58 PM
Egor - 11 February 2012 03:49 PM

... what stops me is the fact that God might give me eyeball cancer or something if I do those things.

Do we have any reason to believe that people who get cancer are evil? Do you think children who die of cancer are evil?

Do we have any reason to believe that evil people come to bad ends naturally?

The answer to these questions is an emphatic “No.”

Where then is your God?

A teological question: At what point do “God’s mysterious ways” become the “works of the Devil”, and why?

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