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Simple question for Jerry, Igor, or any other Christian here
Posted: 28 June 2012 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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George - 28 June 2012 05:24 PM

That’s the problem with people like you. Every question has to be interpreted. Of course, why else would there theology? And the only reason why I keep reading your posts is the same as why I can’t stop staring at a guy on a subway dresses as Napoleon.

I vote with George here. It was a very simple question. If god is so loving why the hell doesn’t he just tell us what he wants instead of shrouding his message in so much mystery? Religious types dance all around the question and make it seem like there is some cosmic goodness out there which we should seek and celebrate. But they, and you Rev. King, ignore the intent of the question.

If there is a god, however you define god, why in the universe does this entity not say “Hello”?

The way things are, facing reality, there is no difference between no god and whatever god you want to postulate.

Give us some unambiguous evidence for a god or admit you are just making stuff up.

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Posted: 28 June 2012 10:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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One Sunday, dressed like Napoleon, I took the church-operated bus. Just before the bus had come to a full stop, the person next to me asked me: “Why are you dressed like Napoleon?”

I responded, politely: “Because I AM Napoleon!”

Then he had the nerve to ask me: “Who told you that YOU are Napoleon?”
Again I responded, politely: “Because the Lord, himself, told me that I am.”

Immediately, the bus driver gently stopped the bus, with his long hair, a well-trimmed beard and wearing a flowing robe, he stood up and asked everyone to sit. He shocked both of us, when in a loud and preachy voice he announced: “I want YOU TWO and and everyone on MY bus to know, “I DID NO SUCH THING!” Then two angel-like helpers appeared, out of nowhere, and took up the offering.  grin

[ Edited: 28 June 2012 10:15 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 28 June 2012 11:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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DarronS - 28 June 2012 05:31 PM

...
I vote with George here. It was a very simple question. If god is so loving why the hell doesn’t he just tell us what he wants instead of shrouding his message in so much mystery? Religious types dance all around the question and make it seem like there is some cosmic goodness out there which we should seek and celebrate. But they, and you Rev. King, ignore the intent of the question.

If there is a god, however you define god, why in the universe does this entity not say “Hello”?

The way things are, facing reality, there is no difference between no god and whatever god you want to postulate.

Give us some unambiguous evidence for a god or admit you are just making stuff up.

DaronS, I take it from your comments and question—“If there is a god, however you define god, why in the universe does this entity not say “Hello”?”—that you assume that I believe in “a god”—a supernatural being with dimensions who lives separate and apart from the physical universe. I don’t! I fully accept that, IMO, there is no “unambiguous evidence” for such a god—not any I would even try to imagine or make up.

I agree with the great inventor, Nicola Tesla—Are you familiar with his inventions, such as AC? And that he was interested in metaphysics in its modern form?—that “god” is not a being who has dimensions that are directly and physically obvious. The New Physics—the universe as a quantum computer—offers a similar kind of approach to reality.

One final question, at the point: How much time are you really willing to spend looking at the philosophy/theology of people like the great mathematician, Alfred North Whitehead—a friend of and collaborator (book, Principles of Mathematics) with Bertrand Russell, a well known atheist.
Whitehead was a panENtheist (reality is in, around and through all things). To avoid confusion with pantheism, I call it unitheism?  Check out ANW at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_North_Whitehead  &  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/whitehead/ 

BTW, John’s writings, in the NT, do NOT talk about a Superman-like god who goes around rescuing and loving people. It simply says that god IS Love, Light, a Way of living and the Like—beginning in people like us. Jesus was an example of this kind of person.

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Posted: 29 June 2012 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Yes, Darron, to fully understand why God doesn’t say hello you first need to know about Tesla’s AC generator. Got it?

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Posted: 29 June 2012 05:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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George - 29 June 2012 04:35 AM

Yes, Darron, to fully understand why God doesn’t say hello you first need to know about Tesla’s AC generator. Got it?

I fully understand that Tesla was a genius, and also quite insane later on in his life.

Rev, your answer says nothing, again. You’re using a lot of words but there is no meaning behind what you say.

Saying

...“god” is not a being who has dimensions that are directly and physically obvious

is no different than saying god does not exist.

Here’s a question for you. What in this universe would be different if it is all just an accident rather than if some unknowable god created it?

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Posted: 29 June 2012 06:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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That’s a very complicated question, Darron, and I suspect the answer has something to do with the Wright brothers and Marie Curie. Get ready for a long essay…  cheese

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Posted: 29 June 2012 06:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Well, Rev, thank you for at least taking the time to respond. That is more than any of the other Christians have done.

However, your response does not help to answer the question. In fact, it only adds more evidence to my assertion that the question points to strong evidence for the non-existence of God. You took the approach of answering the question from different christian perspectives and that is exactly my point! If god is truly GOD, then we should not have thousands of christian sects, not to mention all the other religions.

The fact that you cannot articulate one simple answer to my question is in fact the answer: God is not there. 

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“I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it.”—Edith Sitwell

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Posted: 29 June 2012 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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DarronS - 29 June 2012 05:01 AM

... Here’s a question for you. What in this universe would be different if it is all just an accident rather than if some unknowable god created it?

Of course, you want me to accept, which I do, the obvious answer to your question: If you are demonstrably right, there would be NO difference.

IGNORE THE FOLLOWING, IF YOU WISH
Now may I ask: Do you, and most atheists, really believe what your rhetorical question implies—that the universe our sciences can measure came into existence as the result of a cosmic accident? If so, you have more faith than I have.

Since you and I do not believe in idols—a him, a her, or an it—named “god”, I assume we agree: Such a “god” is a figment of the human imagination—past and present. Long ago I stopped confusing such “a god” with what I call G~0~D-like, knowable and highly-valued qualities found in any person who voluntarily agrees to live by them.

THE CHALLENGE YOUR USEFUL QUESTION AND COMMENTS PROPOSES TO ME
If the material universe is the result of a “cosmic accident” the first question which comes to my mind is: What can, and ought I (we) do about it?

[ Edited: 29 June 2012 09:38 AM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 29 June 2012 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Atheism has nothing to do with what one may believe about the origin of our universe or the origin of life. I know it’s difficult for you to understand.

And what can you do in case the whole thing is just a mere accident? Why don’t you create a new study called “accidentology,” then get a few degrees in it so that you can make up stuff about it and perhaps even make living off it? Isn’t that what you, people, normally do?

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Posted: 29 June 2012 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Actually science doesn’t say there was some “accident” as you call it. The evidence appears to support a big bang, no more (ignoring very recent more speculative ideas). Whether or not there was anything before it, whether or not the bang was tripped off on purpose or not, doesn’t enter into things. It’s really only us layman, or scientists acting as layman, who attribute things like this in our casual conversations.  Makes for fun threads like this, but’s that’s about it.

As for what to do with that? Easy, love each other, help each other, don’t create silly divisions like this religion vs that, this nation vs that, etc. John Lennon’s Imagine.  Simple as that. And I’d go so far as saying even IF there was a god, she’s want us to do just what I described. I mean that’s how I want *my* kids to act.  I’m assuming this desire is a direct reflection of how god views her kids as well!

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Posted: 29 June 2012 10:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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FreeInKy - 29 June 2012 06:13 AM

Well, Rev, thank you for at least taking the time to respond. That is more than any of the other Christians have done.

Thanks, FIK! So, as your bio says, you are a “recovering fundy”, eh? BTW, it would be helpful if all poster like you and Darron, left a BIO. It helps with the communication.

However, your response does not help to answer the question.

Come now! You agree that I did tell you that I do not think of a god, or “God” as a Superman-like being. As you just put it

“... God (for you) is not there.  If god is truly GOD, then we should not have thousands of christian sects, not to mention all the other religions.”

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Posted: 29 June 2012 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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RevLGKing - 29 June 2012 10:53 AM

You agree that I did tell you that I do not think of a god, or “God” as a Superman-like being.

God, a god, G-0-D, higher energy, higher power, god=love…different name, same symptom.

John 14:2: “There are many rooms in a mental institution my Father’s house.”

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Posted: 29 June 2012 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Rev, I answered your question at the end of page 1 - maybe you missed it. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and answer some more of your questions…

RevLGKing - 29 June 2012 09:29 AM

IGNORE THE FOLLOWING, IF YOU WISH
Now may I ask: Do you, and most atheists, really believe what your rhetorical question implies—that the universe our sciences can measure came into existence as the result of a cosmic accident? If so, you have more faith than I have.

The evidence overwhelmingly supports the big bang, if that’s what you’re referring to when you say “cosmic accident”. As for what happened before the big bang, there are some good reasons to think it arose out of nothing. Reason, not faith. [currently reading - A Universe from Nothing] I can give you more details when I’m done. I’m not a scientist, but I know the power of the scientific method and trust scientists to adhere to it. Faith still does not enter the equation.

THE CHALLENGE YOUR USEFUL QUESTION AND COMMENTS PROPOSES TO ME
If the material universe is the result of a “cosmic accident” the first question which comes to my mind is: What can, and ought I (we) do about it?

Does something need to be done about it? Or do you mean, what does it entail? Well, I would say God is refuted by simpler arguments and direct evidence - namely that the bible is not in accordance with known facts about the universe, thus it is not infallible and thus does not entail God. If your God is a panentheistic god and one that also has no effect on the physical universe, then occam’s razor does away with Him. So knowing that the universe is the result of a cosmic accident doesn’t change much. It mainly changes our understanding of physics and whatever that entails - new technology, new scientific theories, etc. As for what does the atheistic worldview entails, that is largely up to the individual atheist. We secular humanists, however, think that we should treat each other ethically, similar to the liberal Christian code of ethics. So again, not much difference.

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“What people do is they confuse cynicism with skepticism. Cynicism is ‘you can’t change anything, everything sucks, there’s no point to anything.’ Skepticism is, ‘well, I’m not so sure.’” -Bill Nye

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Posted: 05 July 2012 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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domokato - 29 June 2012 02:49 PM

... If your God is a panentheistic god

... domokato, you write,

If your God ...

IMO, there is no such thing as “a” panentheistic god, any more than there is a “God particle”—not a term liked by many scientists, or by me—which the media love to headline, and go on and on about. I assume thinkers here at CFI are keeping up on the latest news, eh?

BTW, What makes a boson, a boson? Does anyone know if Higgs boson is simply another elementary particle? Or is it a particle-maker? Now, if the latter, that to me would be G~O~D-like.

If it it just another atom particle, is that supposed to be news? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

Keep in mind that, as a unitheist (we have a group on FaceBook)—a whole new way of thinking, theologically—I do not possess “a” god, any more than I possess an existence, an eternity or an infinity. I think of myself as within the all that IS—the all in which I “live more and have my being”, as Paul puts it in Acts 17: 28

We secular humanists, however, think that we should treat each other ethically, similar to the liberal Christian code of ethics. So again, not much difference.

Good for you! I second the motion. The following is from Wiki:

the Higgs boson is a hypothetical elementary particle, a boson, that is the quantum of the Higgs field. The field and the particle provide a testable hypothesis for the origin of mass in elementary particles. In popular culture, the Higgs boson is also called the God particle, a name disliked by many scientists,[4] after the title of Nobel physicist Leon Lederman’s The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question? (1993), which contained the author’s assertion that the discovery of the particle is crucial to a final understanding of the structure of matter.

[ Edited: 05 July 2012 02:08 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 06 July 2012 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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George, on 29 June 2012 12:33 PM, you quoted me (LGK) as saying to FIK: “You (FIK) agree that I did tell you that I do not think of a god, or “God” as “a Superman-like being.” “

Then you responded

God, a god, G-0-D, higher energy, higher power, god=love…different name, same symptom. John 14:2: “There are many rooms in a mental institution my Father’s house.”

Does anyone have any idea what it is in the intrinsic nature of some people—few in number, thank heavens—which motivates such ungracious and conversation-killing comments? Sad! And I assumed that this was supposed to be the Center For Inquiry (CFI).

[ Edited: 06 July 2012 12:53 PM by RevLGKing ]
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