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Let’s Have a Dialog—ie., a Conversation, not a debate—About the god-hypothesis
Posted: 24 June 2012 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 166 ]
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Of course I don’t enjoy it. And I doubt it has anything to do with your age. Occam is 81 and sharper than most people I know of any age. The only advice I can give you is to stop making stuff up. But if you don’t already know it, then my advice is probably not worth much to you anyway.

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Posted: 24 June 2012 05:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 167 ]
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RLGK, I think you may have an inaccurate idea of the thinking of atheists.  You want to have a “meaningful conversation” about the “god-hypothesis”.  I and most atheists I know would be just as interested in having a “meaningful conversation” about the the “tooth-fairy/easter-bunny/Santa Claus hypothesis.”  First, I must ask, would you be willing to have “meaningful conversation” about the three I listed?  If you think such a suggestion is silly, then you may understand the response of atheists to your proposal.

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Posted: 24 June 2012 08:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 168 ]
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George - 24 June 2012 04:16 PM

Of course I don’t enjoy it. ... The only advice I can give you is to stop making stuff up. ...

Then all you, or anyone, have to do is put your ignore-button on, or stop reading what I write.

Keep in mind, George and Occam, please take note: It was psik who agreed to have a dialogue with me. Meanwhile, if he has changed his mind, maybe he will let me know, on ignore me.

ABOUT SCIENCE AGOGO—A FORUM DEDICATED TO EXPLORING ALL THE SCIENCES—It also has a not-quite-science section where philosophising about the sciences, religion and the arts is welcome. Philosophy, psychology, religion, theology, pneumatology and all the great arts can and often do live in harmony with one another. It is said that all the sciences began as philosophies and usually go on to become technologies and arts.

In 2007, I was invited and welcomed by the hosts of SAGGO. Yes, it includes atheists/agnostics and a variety of theists who seem to get along by agreeing to disagree agreeably. In the science forum http://www.scienceagago.com  using my wife’s family name, Turner, I started a thread Philosophy of Religions—all religions, including ... It is still going; has 1, 971 replies and over 4,500,000 hits. No other thread comes near this record.
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1617&Number=43918#Post43918

Now, I will go on and add a comment in response to Occam’s last post to me about Santa and the Tooth Fairy and god.

[ Edited: 25 June 2012 06:45 AM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 24 June 2012 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 169 ]
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Occam. - 24 June 2012 05:52 PM

RLGK, I think you may have an inaccurate idea of the thinking of atheists. You want to have a “meaningful conversation” about the “god-hypothesis”.  I and most atheists I know would be just as interested in having a “meaningful conversation” about the the “tooth-fairy/easter-bunny/Santa Claus hypothesis.”  First, I must ask, would you be willing to have “meaningful conversation” about the three I listed?  If you think such a suggestion is silly, then you may understand the response of atheists to your proposal.Occam

Occam, from a very young age I stopped thinking of a “tooth-fairy/easter-bunny/Santa Claus hypothesis.” of what I now write as G~0~D—an acronym for all that is Good, Opportune and Desirable.  Unless I am quoting a book or a person, I have given up writing about “God”.

When Dr. Stanley Krippner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Krippner  became aware that I had come up with this way of writing about the god-hypothesis he wrote me an e-mail, and at LinkedIn, a very complimentary note for coming up with this idea. Muslim Imams—very concerned about not Allah a human-like being with dimensions—have also written and spoken to me.

You mentioned “the thinking of atheists”.

TELL ME ABOUT THE THINKING OF ATHEISTS
May I ask: Have atheists dropped the idea of spirituality from all their thinking about human nature, entirely? Is every concept a material thing—one that is only real if it can be weighed and measured? Have you dropped words like “infinity” and “eternity” from your vocabulary? Is it possible to patent and bottle placebos and nocebos? Are faith, hope and love, jealousy, greed, anger, fear, despair and the like unreal qualities?

I am a well-trained hypnotist, and I have a license in the art and use of hypnosis. To avoid the hocus pocus, often associated with the art, I call it pneumatherapy—using the mind and willpower (originating in what I call the pneuma, not to be confused with psyche) to help heal the mind and the body—with the help of medical science when needed. In cooperation with doctors, I have used it to help numerous people, including some very well-educated people (doctors and nurses) overcome some very serious problems—phantom limb pain and the like.

Years ago, my daughter had very serious life-threatening illness in her lungs—at the time, drugs failed to help her condition. With the permission of our family doctor I used pneumatherapy on her. When he saw the results, he acknowledged that pneumatherapy had helped save my daughter’s life. She was seven. She is now a healthy 56 year old and, a massage therapist herself, uses pneumatherapy to help people who come to her. BTW, I write some of this on my site http://www.lindsayking.ca

[ Edited: 24 June 2012 09:11 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 24 June 2012 09:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 170 ]
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RevLGKing - 23 June 2012 11:58 AM

BUT IS PHYSICAL REALITY THE ONLY REALITY?
Is reality nothing more than just a physical thing? Is there not such a thing as a psychological, or mental, reality?
Do not most, if not all, medical scientists now agree that that psychosomatic diseases and pains are for real? Is it not true that poisonous thoughts inflicted on others by us can be as deadly as darts? We accept that we can, for sure, break the bones of others with our fists, sticks and stones, agreed? But can we not also break the hearts, the lives and even the health of others by throwing stress-inflicting dart-like insults at them?

IS THAT THE END OF THE STORY?
No, for me it isn’t. Let us pause for a moment and think about what I like to call the pneumatological, religious or spiritual component of reality. Keep in mind that there are thousands of religions out there. And quite a few of them, like Buddhism, are non-theistic. They think of reality as they experience it as being sacred, eternal and infinite.

I suppose I have to agree that there are three, I just think of them differently or maybe the difference is only in the semantics.

Each of us operates in what I call a paradigm of reality.  It’s in my head and yours is in your head.  Our paradigm of reality can be wrong and we can be out of touch with reality.  Unfortunately reality will not give a damn.  So in a way that is two.  I think we need to be aware of our subjective realities and that they may be wrong.

Then there is unknown reality.  Like that business with Ian Stevenson.  I have talked to about half a dozen people who have told me they have had encounters with ghosts.  Only one of them gave me the impression that he was the kind of person who would pull your leg about something like that.  But I have not had any personal experiences like that so it is still outside of my reality.  I just leave it in the interesting but unknown category.

But the unknown is still REAL.  I just don’t know about it, YET.  The unknown can get you killed and it will not give a damn. So if the system works on reincarnation and there is some God behind it all it is still REAL it is simply an aspect of reality that I do not know about at this time but I am not going to go on any religious trip on what I don’t know.  I figure if there is a God then He is a sneaky bastard that doesn’t give a damn about worship anyway and knows far better than I do what crap organised religion is.  LOL

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Posted: 24 June 2012 11:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 171 ]
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Quoting gbd:

from a very young age I stopped thinking of a ““tooth-fairy/easter-bunny/Santa Claus hypothesis

And so have atheists about the god hypothesis.

I have given up writing about “God”

then

When Dr. Stanley Krippner became aware that I had come up with this way of writing about the god-hypothesis he wrote me . . . a very complimentary note

This seems to indicate that you are just trying to be tricky and claim you aren’t writing about god, but then you get notes that indicate you really are.  Please be honest if you hope to have a reasonable discussion.

TELL ME ABOUT THE THINKING OF ATHEISTS

I can’t speak for all, however those I know see spirituality and soul as parts of the same false theistic fairytale and of no value to discuss.

Have you dropped words like “infinity” and “eternity” from your vocabulary? . . . Are faith, hope and love, jealousy, greed, anger, fear, despair and the like unreal qualities?

Infinity is an extremely deep concept that very few people other than mathematicians, scientists and some philosophers understand.  There is nothing in reality that is truly infinite.  Eternity is a nice metaphorical term but without real universe existence.  Faith is merely belief without sufficient data.  All the others are standard emotional parts of our minds that grow out of motivation.

The rest of your post are merely your personal anecdotal examples that we have no way of verifying, and even if we did, would be of no value to a general discussion.

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Posted: 25 June 2012 03:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 172 ]
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RevLGKing - 24 June 2012 09:09 PM
Occam. - 24 June 2012 05:52 PM

RLGK, I think you may have an inaccurate idea of the thinking of atheists. You want to have a “meaningful conversation” about the “god-hypothesis”.  I and most atheists I know would be just as interested in having a “meaningful conversation” about the the “tooth-fairy/easter-bunny/Santa Claus hypothesis.”  First, I must ask, would you be willing to have “meaningful conversation” about the three I listed?  If you think such a suggestion is silly, then you may understand the response of atheists to your proposal.Occam

Occam, from a very young age I stopped thinking of a “tooth-fairy/easter-bunny/Santa Claus hypothesis.” of what I now write as G~0~D—an acronym for all that is Good, Opportune and Desirable.  Unless I am quoting a book or a person, I have given up writing about “God”.

When Dr. Stanley Krippner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Krippner  became aware that I had come up with this way of writing about the god-hypothesis he wrote me an e-mail, and at LinkedIn, a very complimentary note for coming up with this idea. Muslim Imams—very concerned about not Allah a human-like being with dimensions—have also written and spoken to me.

You mentioned “the thinking of atheists”.

TELL ME ABOUT THE THINKING OF ATHEISTS
May I ask: Have atheists dropped the idea of spirituality from all their thinking about human nature, entirely? Is every concept a material thing—one that is only real if it can be weighed and measured? Have you dropped words like “infinity” and “eternity” from your vocabulary? Is it possible to patent and bottle placebos and nocebos? Are faith, hope and love, jealousy, greed, anger, fear, despair and the like unreal qualities?

I am a well-trained hypnotist, and I have a license in the art and use of hypnosis. To avoid the hocus pocus, often associated with the art, I call it pneumatherapy—using the mind and willpower (originating in what I call the pneuma, not to be confused with psyche) to help heal the mind and the body—with the help of medical science when needed. In cooperation with doctors, I have used it to help numerous people, including some very well-educated people (doctors and nurses) overcome some very serious problems—phantom limb pain and the like.

Years ago, my daughter had very serious life-threatening illness in her lungs—at the time, drugs failed to help her condition. With the permission of our family doctor I used pneumatherapy on her. When he saw the results, he acknowledged that pneumatherapy had helped save my daughter’s life. She was seven. She is now a healthy 56 year old and, a massage therapist herself, uses pneumatherapy to help people who come to her. BTW, I write some of this on my site http://www.lindsayking.ca

Rev. King, As an atheist, I must say yes; we have dropped spirituality from our thinking.

We are materialists. Faith, hope, love, jealousy, and greed are measurable things basically; they surely exist, but they are a result of our biochemistry.

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Posted: 25 June 2012 04:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 173 ]
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RLGK
TELL ME ABOUT THE THINKING OF ATHEISTS
May I ask:  Is it possible to patent and bottle placebos and nocebos? Are faith, hope and love, jealousy, greed, anger, fear, despair and the like unreal qualities?

Patenting placebos is dishonest. Trying to patent the emotions you cited is equally dishonest. These things do not exist as seperate entities, but are uniquely personal mental experiences, for which no catch-all remedy can be formulated and patented.

Any shared idea or experience relies on the presence of mirror synapses in the brain. These mirror responses are fashioned by experience. In the absence of such neurons the experience of one cannot be shared the same way by another. It is now thought that autism is very much related to the absence of common mirror synapses, i.e. the autistic person cannot experience what others experience and thereby become disassociated from social norms.

OTOH, mirror synapses can be created by indoctrination and yes, those people will share the same emotions, but they may be based on false illusions, as is the case in many good religious people. But that does not make it truth.

[ Edited: 25 June 2012 04:39 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 26 June 2012 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 174 ]
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I wouldn’t assume that all people who call themselves “atheists” think alike.

I am definitely suspicious of any “atheist” who presumes to speak for all others.

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Posted: 26 June 2012 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 175 ]
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mid atlantic - 25 June 2012 03:05 AM

... Rev. King, As an atheist, I must say yes; we have dropped spirituality from our thinking.

Then, MidAtlantic, I will assume, for now, that you are at least one atheist who has the belief—or is it a theory?

The belief, theory, you advocate, as I understand it, is as follows: Human beings are, for you, the same as animal beings (who, by the way, as a human being, I respect and love).

This means that, as a human and an animal being—let us say that I am in the form of a horse, cow, pig, whale, seal, shark, penguin, whatever—you believe that I have no choice but to be totally dominated by the instincts of the kind of animal, or fish, whatever I happen to be, agreed? 

If the above is so, I have no idea what you mean—feel free to reason with the instinct-dominated and animal me—when you say

We are materialists. Faith, hope, love, jealousy, and greed are measurable things basically; they surely exist, but they are a result of our biochemistry.

Meanwhile, agape (good will from me) smile

[ Edited: 26 June 2012 03:59 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 26 June 2012 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 176 ]
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RevLGKing
Then, MidAtlantic, I will assume, for now, that you are at least one atheist who has the belief—or is it a theory?

MA, forgive me, but I could not resist.
Atheism is not a belief system (theory). Atheism is non-belief, a rejection of belief in a god. Atheism does not make an extraordinary claim (theory) and therefore is exempt from the burden of proof. That burden falls on Theism.

The belief, theory, you advocate, as I understand it, is as follows: Human beings are, for you, the same as animal beings (who, by the way, as a human being, I respect and love).

This means that, as a human and an animal being—let us say that I am in the form of a horse, cow, pig, whale, seal, shark, penguin, whatever—you believe that I have no choice but to be totally dominated by the instincts of the kind of animal, or fish, whatever I happen to be, agreed?

I’ll let MA speak for himself, but it seems to me you are drawing a lot of premature conclusions from the word atheism. Moreover I find a certain hubris in your assumption that man is the only “animal” with intelligence (free will) and emotions (love, care, consideration, cooperation). Just because we don’t understand the other highly intelligent creatures which grace our oceans and forests, does not mean we can claim they are dominated by their animal instincts. btw. We are still very much dominated by our animal instincts and indeed act that way on many occasion.
I always find it somewhat disturbing when we see animal behavior and say “wow, they act just like humans”. Perhaps it is more accurate to say “wow, humans act just like animals”.

[ Edited: 26 June 2012 04:42 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 26 June 2012 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 177 ]
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RevLGKing - 26 June 2012 03:56 PM
mid atlantic - 25 June 2012 03:05 AM

... Rev. King, As an atheist, I must say yes; we have dropped spirituality from our thinking.

Then, MidAtlantic, I will assume, for now, that you are at least one atheist who has the belief—or is it a theory?

The belief, theory, you advocate, as I understand it, is as follows: Human beings are, for you, the same as animal beings (who, by the way, as a human being, I respect and love).

This means that, as a human and an animal being—let us say that I am in the form of a horse, cow, pig, whale, seal, shark, penguin, whatever—you believe that I have no choice but to be totally dominated by the instincts of the kind of animal, or fish, whatever I happen to be, agreed? 

If the above is so, I have no idea what you mean—feel free to reason with the instinct-dominated and animal me—when you say

We are materialists. Faith, hope, love, jealousy, and greed are measurable things basically; they surely exist, but they are a result of our biochemistry.

Meanwhile, agape (good will from me) smile

If I understand you correctly, the answer is yes; I do think we can only behave according to our biology.  That might sound very grim, but our species is capable of plenty of “happy stuff” along with the “bad stuff”.  In other words, our humanity is matter.

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Posted: 26 June 2012 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 178 ]
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Write4U - 26 June 2012 04:20 PM

... Moreover I find a certain hubris in your assumption that man is the only “animal” with intelligence (free will) and emotions (love, care, consideration, cooperation). ...

So, Write4U, you are you telling all who read this thread that you are nothing other than an

“animal” with intelligence (free will) and emotions (love, care, consideration, cooperation).

Do you mean that we could be wrong to assume that you are an educated human-like being with computer-skills? You could simply be a well-trained family pet taught to use the ‘puter—and using it while your owner is in bed. Now, if you can find another such “animal” we could, using skype, have a three-way conversation. This would really make your “theory” very convincing. smile

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Posted: 27 June 2012 12:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 179 ]
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RevLGKing - 26 June 2012 09:06 PM
Write4U - 26 June 2012 04:20 PM

... Moreover I find a certain hubris in your assumption that man is the only “animal” with intelligence (free will) and emotions (love, care, consideration, cooperation). ...

So, Write4U, you are you telling all who read this thread that you are nothing other than an

“animal” with intelligence (free will) and emotions (love, care, consideration, cooperation).

Do you mean that we could be wrong to assume that you are an educated human-like being with computer-skills? You could simply be a well-trained family pet taught to use the ‘puter—and using it while your owner is in bed. Now, if you can find another such “animal” we could, using skype, have a three-way conversation. This would really make your “theory” very convincing. smile

No, I am saying that we could be wrong about being the only educated animal with certain skills on this planet. Do we have the knowledge of the whale’s world (oceans) as a whale does. What are the whales communicating when singing their songs, which are heard by whales hundreds of miles away and relayed to other whales hundreds of miles away. We know they sing “words” which are stacked notes, much like musical chords. They don’t need skype.

Do we know the knowledge of dolphins who can scan the inside of our bodies and see our organs. What language do they speak that they can travel in perfect unison without seeing each other?  We hear them as grunts and clicks, but human language is no more than a series of grunts and clicks. What whales and dolphins can do naturally we have to invent “gadgets” for.

These mammals live in an alien environment and it is no wonder that they have alien survival and communication skills. But as air breathing mammals in the deep ocean they have managed to survive for millions of years in harmony with their environment, until we came along and in a few hundred years managed to almost wipe them from the waters of the earth. For us to just assume they are of lesser intelligence because they can’t beg for mercy is an argument from ignorance and hubris, IMO. How do we know that the mass strandings are not a self sacrifice in an attempt to tell us something? Tibetan monks have been known to set themselves on fire in protest and martyrdom.  What do we know of mirror synapses in other mammals with large developed brains?

If there are animals worthy of your phrase G-0-D, that which is all Good, Opportune & Desirable, just these two alone must surely be counted. And as far as the wise use of willpower, ours is about equal to that of the army-ant.

[ Edited: 27 June 2012 02:23 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 27 June 2012 09:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 180 ]
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W4U, thanks!:
I agape your signature as a Good and artistic contribution to the art of communication and dialogue. You say: “Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind. W4U”. Excellent!

Speaking of art: Art, in all its forms, has been a life-long interest of mine. I support the arts to the best of my ability.
Both children of Jean (a retired teacher) and of me are “struggling” artists. We think of them as our live contribution to the arts. Our daughter, a painter/carver/dancer/writer, married to a carver was born in 1956. She and her artist husband live on, and in, an ever-evolving work of art. It is a floating house/garden and future art gallery near Tofino, BC [For info, search on floating houses in the area.]. Tourists come from all over to visit them, and are welcome. Also, there are lots of whales, bears and other animals in that part of Canada.
My son is a wood-wind artist (Don Mills, Toronto, ON), and was born in 1958. He supports his art/wife/three children (two in university) by doing gigs when hired to do so, and by working part time as a teaching-assistant in the public schools.

[ Edited: 27 June 2012 09:22 AM by RevLGKing ]
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