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Let’s Have a Dialog—ie., a Conversation, not a debate—About the god-hypothesis
Posted: 16 July 2012 07:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 301 ]
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Occam. - 16 July 2012 07:36 PM

Geez, I knew we were soulmates, Darron. LOL

but I hit a brick wall in trigonometry. I understand how trig and calculus work, but my brain refuses to retain the formulas to regurgitate on tests.

I loved math until stupid trig showed up.  A few of the concepts of calculus were nice, but eh.  After finishing the lower division requirements, my major had the upper division requirement of four math courses, expecting that advanced calculus and differential equations would be used to fulfill them.  I took two advanced algebra courses and two number theory courses instead. They were a lot of fun and I never regretted them.  Interestingly, not once in my entire work life did I ever need either trig or calculus. 

Occam

I actually like playing around with trig. I find the concepts fascinating, but the way colleges teach it is ridiculous. Why should I have to memorize all the formulas? Every engineer, astronomer and physicist I have talked with says all I need to know is where to find the formulas and how to use them. I would like to take at least one statistics course. Unfortunately I have used all my elective hours, so stats will probably have to wait until after I graduate. The good part is if I go back to community college for stats I’ll be able to buy software at student rates. cheese

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Posted: 17 July 2012 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 302 ]
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You may be right; if trig were taught more like geometry and without the predigested formulas it might be more interesting.  I took one elementary statistics course for the fun of it and got hooked.  That led me into an advanced course and a probability one that I enjoyed even more.

It’s interesting that while I don’t recall many of the specific procedures easily, all of the varieties of mathematics give me additional conceptual views of the world.

Occam

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Posted: 17 July 2012 03:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 303 ]
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DarronS - 16 July 2012 07:00 PM

... I would include mathematics if I had the chops to be good at math, but I hit a brick wall in trigonometry. I understand how trig and calculus work, but my brain refuses to retain the formulas to regurgitate on tests.

Did anyone ever use the mnemonic HAVE   HOPE,  BE   PATIENT,  BE   PATIENT?  Then we flipped it over and repeated the words.  HH BP BP over, HH BP BP

I can’t remember exactly how it worked so don’t hold me to it, but as I recall, we called the sides of the triangle the hypotenuse, base (not adjacent) and perpendicular (not the opposite). Thus, I think, sine was Patience over Have, P/H etc. —Something like as follows—not easy to write it here.

Sine               Cosine       Secant       Cosecant     Tangent   Cotangent
Patient Be     Patient   Be   Have   Hope
=========  ==========  ========  ======== 
Have   Hope,      Be     Patient,    Be   Patient

[ Edited: 17 July 2012 07:15 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 17 July 2012 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 304 ]
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That’s the easy stuff Rev. I had no problem with that part. It was later in the semester when we got into all the esoteric formulas that I had problems. I did not have trouble working with the formulas, but memorizing them all just so I could regurgitate the formulas on a test just to prove I had memorized them annoyed the hell out of me. The professor was quite proud of all the memorization he required. My astronomy and physics profs were quite pissed that my math prof made his students memorize the formulas.

This is the biggest reason I switched my major from science to liberal arts.

[ Edited: 17 July 2012 03:52 PM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 17 July 2012 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 305 ]
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I’ve found that the best teachers were those who had both an in-depth understanding of the meanings of their subject and a real skill at transferring that understanding to the students.  The worst ones were those who had their subject completely memorized (even though they never understood it) and had no empathy for the thought processes and needs of the students.

Occam

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Posted: 18 July 2012 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 306 ]
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DarronS - 16 July 2012 07:00 PM

... I am on this forum because I enjoy exchanging ideas with people who are open to new information and practice critical thinking skills.

Thanks! It seems that, in principle, we agree here.

The vast majority of people here fit that description, and exchanging ideas - even arguing - with these people has helped hone my thinking skills.

All my senses are open. Again, it seems we agree.

I have little patience with people who obstinately repeat stuff they’ve been told to think or latch onto ideas that sound exciting then refuse to consider the drawbacks as well as the benefits.

If you ever catch me doing this, may I assure you that I welcome ALL constructive criticism.

My interests include photography, the environment, astronomy, physics, philosophy and good music. Good music? If there is such a thing as “bad music”, what for you is “bad” music?

About art. While I love painting (with a brush—small and large—my fingers and a trowel, whatever) I love all forms of graphic art, including photography, about which I will leave to the experts to teach me. In my later years, I am doing my best to study the art of writing.

BTW, a happy career, of over forty years, depended on using the art of speaking. When I started, I had no idea what it was I was talking about, but I sure knew how to talk. So I said it, anyway. Somehow, it kept me employed. That, and marrying the right person—60 years ago, come September—is still paying the bills and helping our children and grand children get the education and help that all who follow us .... add you own thoughts

I would include mathematics if I had the chops to be good at math, but I hit a brick wall in trigonometry. I understand how trig and calculus work, but my brain refuses to retain the formulas to regurgitate on tests.

WHAT A GREAT DISCIPLINE, EH?

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Posted: 19 July 2012 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 307 ]
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RevLGKing - 18 July 2012 04:05 PM

BTW, a happy career, of over forty years, depended on using the art of speaking.

I bet it was a happy one. How does it feel to “accept donations” from people with real jobs?

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Posted: 19 July 2012 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 308 ]
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George - 19 July 2012 06:43 AM
RevLGKing - 18 July 2012 04:05 PM

BTW, a happy career, of over forty years, depended on using the art of speaking.

I bet it was a happy one. How does it feel to “accept donations” from people with real jobs?

  grin  A little humour there, very little. And the pay was much better than that made my welfare-dependant comedians who have no idea how to be funny.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 309 ]
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RevLGKing - 19 July 2012 08:09 PM

grin  A little humour there, very little. And the pay was much better than that made my welfare-dependant comedians who have no idea how to be funny.

Actually, it is a relevant question. Were you standing behind pulpit telling people about god? Were you a self-help guru telling them how to make profits using other people’s money? How did you make a living talking to people?

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Posted: 19 July 2012 08:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 310 ]
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RevLGKing - 19 July 2012 08:09 PM
George - 19 July 2012 06:43 AM
RevLGKing - 18 July 2012 04:05 PM

BTW, a happy career, of over forty years, depended on using the art of speaking.

I bet it was a happy one. How does it feel to “accept donations” from people with real jobs?

  grin  A little humour there, very little. And the pay was much better than that made my welfare-dependant comedians who have no idea how to be funny.

I was only trying to be funny when I used the words “accepting donations.” (I am quite serious about the rest of what I said.) What I should have said instead is “stealing money.”  You stole money from people who didn’t know any better—not everyone in a church is as naive as to believe everything you tell them, but a lot of them are. It’s okay to spread your nonsense here, but when you surround yourself wih people who’s average IQ is below 100 and sell them your fairy tales, you better hope there is no God.

Sorry, but your pride of having a happy career using an “art of speaking” makes me ill to my stomach.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 03:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 311 ]
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Here I repeat my response to George’s “joke” about my 40 years, and more, as a minister of the United Church of Canada—which, BTW, like marriage can go on ‘til death do us part.

To George I said, jokingly:

RevLGKing - 19 July 2012 08:09 PM

grin  A little humour there, very little. And the pay was much better than that made by welfare-dependant comedians who have no idea how to be funny.

Now, DarronS and George: Thanks for the following interesting questions.

DarronS - 19 July 2012 08:12 PM

Actually, it is a relevant question. Were you standing behind pulpit telling people about god?

Telling people about god? And what god did you have in mind? It is much more complex than that.

Preaching, teaching, pastoring and helping with the healing of broken families and the broken hearts of individuals involves a lot of thinking, writing, listening, administration of church office—clergy assistants, two secretaries, other staff and volunteers.

ABOUT WRITING, RADIO AND TV WORK
Though I could always speak off the cuff (and still can), when I wanted to, or needed to, I usually wrote out the basic details of most of my sermons. Many of them are still on file. It is interesting, now and then, to go back and check out how my thinking has changed over the decades—for the better, I hope.
For years, I wrote a weekly column for a North Toronto Paper. I got lots of letters, including several major articles, published in the major Toronto papers. Several articles were written about the work of the FAMILY LIFE FOUNDATION (the FLF is active and growing)—a registered charity I initiated in 1973. Its purpose then was, and still is, to be a non-sectarian outreach of all churches. At the time I started the FLF, it operated out of Willowdale United Church (WUC)—of which I was the minister from 1966 to 1994—to serve the public good. http://www.willowdaleunited.com/
The United Church of Canada is totally inclusive of all races and religions. It also welcomes moral secularists. Sure we have our share of hypocrites, but that’s life!

As the minister of WUC, I had to answer to lay leaders appointed, by The Board, to help the staff—I mean the ministers, the music director, the organist, the two secretaries and the building staff—work together.

The staff came under the following boards, elected by the congregation (then about 800 families): There were the elders (that is, lay ministers—male and female), the stewards, trustees—oversight of finances and care of property, All were appointed by the members of the whole congregation at the annual meeting. As a congregation, we came under the local, provincial and federal (The General Council of the Church)  church authorities.

Me now? I can still think of myself as, a minister. The word comes from the Latin and literally means a servant. It can be applied to a person given charge of a church as its spiritual guide—preaching (talking with, not just at) and teaching, regularly.

As a pastor (think doctor without drugs or a scalpel )—I did visiting therapy, talking therapy, counselling in my office, pneumatherapy (like psychotherapy) and the like. Fortunately, I have a background in philosophy/psychology and a way with words.

Interestingly, minister is a term that can also be applied to a person given charge of a department of the government—at home or abroad.   

Were you a self-help guru telling them how to make profits using other people’s money?

Using the word pneumatology (the mother of psychology) I gave a regular series of talks—locally and elsewhere, including the USA and England—designed to help people help themselves.

In doing so, I always invited people interested in being of service to the public good, trained in the healing arts, including medical doctors, to be involved with the FLF. But I never thought of myself as a “guru”, in the media sense of the word. Many of the people who came to the talks also requested personal counselling. I still get calls.

How did you make a living talking to people?

It took a lot of work—and not just 8 hours a day. And, by the way, unlike teachers (my wife was one, now retired) or the police, I could not depend on the taxpayer, or even church headquarters, to pay my regulated and modest salary (much less than a school principal).

My salary came from the free-will offerings of the people who came to my church. If I failed to attract enough people to come to church and support my ministry, I lost my position in that particular church. Many ministers have failed to be financially successful, as ministers, and have left in despair and had to go on to other things. More than one of my friends have had to do so. Sadly, they discovered: There is no magic Lord, or any other superhero, who provides.

Early on I learned: If material success was to be it was up to me, and my wife. Fortunately, 60 years ago, this September, I married a teacher. She went back to work, when our children were of age for her to do so. Now, her pension and mine is helping our children—who, as artists, still need our help—and three grandchildren (two in university now, and one ready next year). We are also one of the main supporters of the charity work of the Family Life Foundation—lots of good stories there. Just recently we helped a couple avoid being evicted. Quite a story.

Readers. Now, how about you answering the same questions that have been put to me, eh?

[ Edited: 20 July 2012 03:55 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 20 July 2012 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 312 ]
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George - 19 July 2012 08:33 PM

... What I should have said instead is “stealing money.” 

You stole money from people who didn’t know any better—not everyone in a church is as naive as to believe everything you tell them, but a lot of them are. It’s okay to spread your nonsense here, but when you surround yourself wih people who’s average IQ is below 100 and sell them your fairy tales, you better hope there is no God.
===========================
Sorry, but your pride of having a happy career using an “art of speaking” makes me ill to my stomach.

==================================================================================
Mental vitriol always make people ill, George. And it is probably is not too good for the IQ. I hope you will get well, soon.

BTW, the people of Willowdale—one of the up-scale areas of Toronto—poor and stupid? They were all well-off and well educated. Most owned their own homes, and made more salary than I did. This is why THEY invited me to be their minister. I did not even apply for the job.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 313 ]
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It’s just that a friend of mine who is a Catholic priest (and I suspect an atheist—we never touch that topic) would never say such a thing. But then, his art is listening to people in need, not speaking to them to build a career. Him and you are the only clergy I have ever talked to. His attitude I admire, yours, well, makes me ill.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 314 ]
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RevLGKing - 20 July 2012 03:51 PM

The United Church of Canada is totally inclusive of all races and religions.

Except for the Norse religion. When I got married in a United Church in Mississauga, I wasn’t permitted to play Wagner.  wink

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Posted: 20 July 2012 11:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 315 ]
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I rank churches in general extremely low on my totem pole of value, however, any church that rejects Wagner has one good thing going for it.  LOL

Occam

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