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Let’s Have a Dialog—ie., a Conversation, not a debate—About the god-hypothesis
Posted: 20 February 2012 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Greatest I am - 20 February 2012 02:34 PM
TimB - 20 February 2012 12:21 PM

In reviewing the last couple of pages of this thread:

1) DL, do you consider that the Universal Consciousness that you believe in, has some autonomy, or that it is more like a database that can be tapped into?

.

It is not autonomous in the sense of being able to move about.

If you mean autonomy of thought, I believe so.

It is a part of nature the same as we are and would have the same inability to transcend nature and physics.
It is also a data base that can be tapped into but it chooses to be tapped or not. We do not open it. It opens to us.

Regards
DL

I assume that the event in which it opened to you was an experience you would like to repeat.  Have you tried to re-create the conditions?  Do you think there are conditions in which it might be more likely to occur?  (e.g., I would guess in deep meditation or under the influence of psylicibin?.)

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 20 February 2012 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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TimB
W4U, in considerations of which will be the dominant species, don’t forget micro-organisms as a candidate.  (Are we not life support systems for microrganisms currently?)

Yes, I mentioned that in my previous post. Its amazing how many organism the human body is host to. We are an ecological system ourselfs.

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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 20 February 2012 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Brings to mind the eminent biologist JBS Haldane’s famous quote (perhaps apocryphal, but great nonetheless): “The creator, if he exists, has an inordinate fondness for beetles.

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Doug

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Posted: 20 February 2012 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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TimB - 20 February 2012 02:45 PM
Greatest I am - 20 February 2012 02:34 PM
TimB - 20 February 2012 12:21 PM

In reviewing the last couple of pages of this thread:

1) DL, do you consider that the Universal Consciousness that you believe in, has some autonomy, or that it is more like a database that can be tapped into?

.

It is not autonomous in the sense of being able to move about.

If you mean autonomy of thought, I believe so.

It is a part of nature the same as we are and would have the same inability to transcend nature and physics.
It is also a data base that can be tapped into but it chooses to be tapped or not. We do not open it. It opens to us.

Regards
DL

I assume that the event in which it opened to you was an experience you would like to repeat.

Yes and no. There is both pleasure and pain involved and the pay back, although I would not reverse my history, is not particularly pleasant. Trying to show theists that their faith is misplaced is thankless. It also screwed my comfy non-believer position and lost me some atheist friends.

Sort of like,——my wife ran away with my best friend. I sure miss him. Smile.

Have you tried to re-create the conditions?

Yes.  Both towards my wife and the Godhead. I have failed.

Do you think there are conditions in which it might be more likely to occur?  (e.g., I would guess in deep meditation or under the influence of psylicibin?.)

The key ingredients for telepathy seems to be a strong desire or determination and a strong emotional content.
That is why my wife calls it an assault. I only touched her mind for a second or two and even without any actual back and forth communication, I made her cry. It may be that we have a shield, if I can use that word, that is protecting us from stray communication with or from others.

Some religions are into drug induced trances and the ancient shaman are said to have used various drugs but from what I know of phychotropic drugs, they are enhancers of experiences and not the creators of it.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 20 February 2012 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Greatest I am - 20 February 2012 04:06 PM

The key ingredients for telepathy seems to be a strong desire or determination and a strong emotional content.

More accurately, these are the key ingredients for convincing yourself and others that telepathy is real, just as they are the key ingredients to convincing people that anything false is true.

When you actually try to test telepathy objectively, you find out that it does not exist.

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Doug

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El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

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Posted: 20 February 2012 06:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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Damn, I know I have telepathy, but every time I try to test for it, it runs away and hides.  LOL

Occam

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Succinctness, clarity’s core.

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Posted: 20 February 2012 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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Occam. - 20 February 2012 06:09 PM

Damn, I know I have telepathy, but every time I try to test for it, it runs away and hides.  LOL

Occam

Maybe the “person” you’r trying to communicate with runs away and hides?....Or perhaps your are not using just the right language…..wait, god speaks every language, thus he must be running away and hide. Why is that?... confused question

[ Edited: 20 February 2012 07:23 PM by Write4U ]
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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 21 February 2012 02:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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dougsmith - 19 February 2012 12:13 PM

I agree with this approach in general, though I don’t really think Spinoza or Einstein could be accused of doing so when they used the word “god”.

Well, it is a minor point, but maybe they did express their subjective feelings: of awe and wonder about nature.

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“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

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Posted: 21 February 2012 09:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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RevLGKing - 17 February 2012 04:58 PM

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans ...

I agree! Now, with this obvious piece of truth out of the way, may I ask atheists and agnostics the following—and I do not intend to ask snide, loaded, the gotcha-kind, or rhetorical—questions: If no god created and brought us to this point, what did? Evolution? If so, where can we hope, or want, to evolve from here? Is it best practice to let evolution take it course? Or, now that it seems that we do have a level self-awareness, is it possible to exercise our WILLpower and, from here on, do a better job?

. . . 

I predict that this will require THE INTEGRATION OF THE SECULAR (body and mind)  AND THE SACRED (spirit) VALUES.
Whether or not we think in sacred (spiritual), or in secular (body and mind) terms, we all love to make our gods in our own image. But will the new image include prosperity, justice and peace for all? That is the question.

My question to you, Linds is: why should anyone frame the great questions of life like that? I can think of more useful ways to frame the questions that are most central to my life; and by that I mean most central to my living a life serving the greater cause of life. You’ve framed the issue in the usual way: from an assumption that a clear answer is to be desired. I don’t accept the assumption, for the simple reason that there are many things we do not know.

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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RevLGKing - 17 February 2012 04:58 PM

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans ...

I agree! Now, with this obvious piece of truth out of the way, may I ask atheists and agnostics the following—and I do not intend to ask snide, loaded, the gotcha-kind, or rhetorical—questions: If no god created and brought us to this point, what did? Evolution? If so, where can we hope, or want, to evolve from here? Is it best practice to let evolution take it course? Or, now that it seems that we do have a level self-awareness, is it possible to exercise our WILLpower and, from here on, do a better job? . . . 

I predict that this will require THE INTEGRATION OF THE SECULAR (body and mind)  AND THE SACRED (spirit) VALUES.
Whether or not we think in sacred (spiritual), or in secular (body and mind) terms, we all love to make our gods in our own image. But will the new image include prosperity, justice and peace for all? That is the question.

That’s what we’ve been doing anyway, isn’t it?  Secularists aren’t a different species from everyone else.  We also want prosperity, peace, justice, to which we would probably add something about self-determination and individual dignity.

Way back when, the “sacred” might have had some value, when some Moses got the people to obey his ethical laws by telling them that God wrote them.  The trouble is that somewhere along the line the “sacred” cart started pulling the horse, and holy commandments started to be obeyed for their own sake and not for there secular value.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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PLaClair - 21 February 2012 09:31 PM

... My question to you, Linds is: why should anyone frame the great questions of life like that?...

So go ahead, make your comments and frame the questions you feel are “central to my life” and yours. I am also curious about what you mean by your signature.

You’ve framed the issue in the usual way: from an assumption that a clear answer is to be desired. I don’t accept the assumption, for the simple reason that there are many things we do not know.

Assumption? All I have in mind is having a conversation. And, BTW, as the decades role by—I was born in 1930—the hungrier I become for knowledge. However, I like to think and I am a very agnostic pilgrim.

SOCRATES, RENE DESCARTES AND OTHER AGNOSTICS, INCLUDING ME
In his skepticism-grounded search for knowledge, Rene Descartes simplified things by naming the one thing of which he felt certain. Thus he coined the famous phrase: “I think, therefore I am”.

RENE WAS A DUALIST, I AM MORE OF A MONIST
BTW, for some time now I have made it a practice of beginning my day by stating that I am, I think, I do!

Combined with my morning shave and bath, I do a brief META-tation, which also includes yoga-like exercise. I say to myself: I am, therefore, I have the power to think, be, will and choose. Therefore, I also have the power to think, to learn and to know. The leads me to breathe deeply, to drink the fluids I need and to eat the foods I need to get the energy I need to do what I need to do.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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RevLGKing - 22 February 2012 02:05 PM

Combined with my morning shave and bath, I do a brief META-tation, which also includes yoga-like exercise. I say to myself: I am, therefore, I have the power to think, be, will and choose. Therefore, I also have the power to think, to learn and to know. The leads me to breathe deeply, to drink the fluids I need and to eat the foods I need to get the energy I need to do what I need to do.

I heard this type of exercise is especially effective during a full moon. For additional effect I recommend repeating “I am, therefore, I have the power to think, be, will and choose” three times in a row, while lifting up your left leg and your right arm simultaneously.  cheese

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Posted: 22 February 2012 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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A little humour there, George! Very little. BTW, I like your picture!  LOL

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Posted: 22 February 2012 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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RevLGKing - 22 February 2012 02:05 PM
PLaClair - 21 February 2012 09:31 PM

... My question to you, Linds is: why should anyone frame the great questions of life like that?...

So go ahead, make your comments and frame the questions you feel are “central to my life” and yours. I am also curious about what you mean by your signature.

You’ve framed the issue in the usual way: from an assumption that a clear answer is to be desired. I don’t accept the assumption, for the simple reason that there are many things we do not know.

Assumption? All I have in mind is having a conversation. And, BTW, as the decades role by—I was born in 1930—the hungrier I become for knowledge. However, I like to think and I am a very agnostic pilgrim.

SOCRATES, RENE DESCARTES AND OTHER AGNOSTICS, INCLUDING ME
In his skepticism-grounded search for knowledge, Rene Descartes simplified things by naming the one thing of which he felt certain. Thus he coined the famous phrase: “I think, therefore I am”.

RENE WAS A DUALIST, I AM MORE OF A MONIST
BTW, for some time now I have made it a practice of beginning my day by stating that I am, I think, I do!

Combined with my morning shave and bath, I do a brief META-tation, which also includes yoga-like exercise. I say to myself: I am, therefore, I have the power to think, be, will and choose. Therefore, I also have the power to think, to learn and to know. The leads me to breathe deeply, to drink the fluids I need and to eat the foods I need to get the energy I need to do what I need to do.

Linds, you’re very good, and a welcome addition here. My observation was mainly in reference to this question you posed: “If no god created and brought us to this point, what did?” That single question contains layers and layers of assumptions - or maybe just layers and layers of embedded questions. Does the question imply that a single entity “created and brought us to this point”? Some would interpret it that way. How far back does the question reach? (As Dennett observes, all causation analysis begins somewhere within the middle.)

I think you’ve hinted at a more meaningful approach by asking where do we go from here. My commitment is to the worth and dignity of all people, perhaps all living beings.

Now here’s a question: What are you agnostic about?

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I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 07:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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PLaClair - 22 February 2012 07:13 PM

Linds, you’re very good, and a welcome addition here.

PLaClair, thanks for the generalized-compliment. Not that I expect you to know, may I ask: What do you feel I am good at. Though I acknowledge that I am egotistic enough to love sincere compliments, I hope I am not just fishing for them.

My observation was mainly in reference to this question you posed: “If no god created and brought us to this point, what did?”

That single question contains layers and layers of assumptions - or maybe just layers and layers of embedded questions. Does the question imply that a single entity “created and brought us to this point”? Some would interpret it that way. How far back does the question reach? (As Dennett observes, all causation analysis begins somewhere within the middle.)

I think you’ve hinted at a more meaningful approach by asking where do we go from here. My commitment is to the worth and dignity of all people, perhaps all living beings.

Now here’s a question: What are you agnostic about?

If you are looking for a list from me of the things about which I would like to know more, but don’t know much, it would be a rather long list. Then there are the things I used to know a lot about, but—thanks to the gift of old age —:)—I have forgotten. Ironically, in high school I did very well in science and maths. One question I often ask myself is: How come you (LGK) made a career based on an education which was mostly in philosophy and the arts—particularly the arts of preaching and counseling?

Perhaps it is easier for me to list the things that have grabbed my attention, over the years, focused on and about which I have been on a pilgrimage to get the knowledge I want and need. And I am sure I am just one among many who have thought about the many, if not all, of the following. I will begin with one issue which is very much a part of being in the ministry.

PAIN AND SUFFERING
1. The problem of pain and suffering. Before I say more on the general topic, perhaps it is a good idea to look at what Daniel Dennett said about a new word, which he coined, ‘deepity’. And, BTW, I love neologisms, especially when they are used to introduce new views and doctrines. I also I love concocting, using them and giving them definitions, when appropriate. And after reading the following, I will do my best to avoid using false deepeties. And feel free to call me on it if I fail to do what I intend:

Deepity, as mentioned in another post, is, according to Wiki, a term coined by Daniel Dennett in his 2009 speech to the American Atheists Institution conference. It refers to a statement that has (at least) two meanings; one that is true but trivial, and another that sounds profound, but is essentially false or meaningless and would be “earth-shattering” if true.

The example Dennett uses to illustrate a deepity is the phrase “love is just a word”. On one level the statement is perfectly true (i.e., ‘love’ is a four letter word) but the deeper meaning of the phrase is false; love is many things - a feeling, an emotion, a condition and not simply a word.

And there is this

Extension to theology
As well as a criticism of bad prose and poetry,the term “deepity” can refer to many religious sentiments and some of the more meaningless rhetoric. Dennett argues that theology is full of deepities, and noting that the sophisticated theological statement “God is no being at all” is equivalent to “no being at all is God”. Other deepities he refers to are “God is Being itself” and “God is the God beyond God”.

The concept is not without its critics, however. Most seem to believe that Dennett is attacking the right of people to use metaphorical language. Other critics claim that the universe and physics already exhibit “deepities” that don’t bother atheists, so they shouldn’t complain about religions using

Pain and suffering, in one form of another, is of course, a common human experience. Some religions even argue that without pain salvation (total healing of body, mind and spirit) is impossible. There is so much here that we do not know about, yet. So here is the agnostic part:

How come some of us get so much pain and suffering in our lives and others seem to get all the good luck in the world? Without raising the why-me questions, and avoiding, for now, giving the traditional psychological and religion-based answers, I simply say, that it grabbed my attention because—growing up as I did as the seventh child in a family of eight—I saw much poverty-related physical kind of pain and suffering going on in my family and in most of the families around me. By the time I was five I experienced the deaths of six members of my family, including our mother. During WW 2 (1942) I saw 69 merchant seamen lose their lives—and their bodies dragged ashore—when their ships were sunk by enemy subs in the water not far from our house. I was 12 years old. BTW, later my father died, when I was 14 (1944). But, interestingly, at times I felt angry and asked a lot of questions, but at no time did I feel like a hopeless victim.

And this is what I don’t really know, but would like to know: Around that time I began to experience all the luck in the world ... And I often wonder: How come? Was it just luck? [Let’s come back to this later. Anyone, If so inclined, feel free to tell you experience. BTW, I will honour your right to remain silent. There are some things that are just our private thoughts and memories.]

[ Edited: 23 February 2012 11:23 AM by RevLGKing ]
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