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Shanti Devi case and the “reincarnation is a truth!” .... WTF?!
Posted: 02 March 2012 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Why do so many people have such a hard time understanding that the existence of mind does not require any explanation beyond the brain? I mean, sure, the nature of consciousness is very mysterious, but so far nothing we have learned about it requires any explanation that can’t be found in the hardware.

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Posted: 02 March 2012 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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FreeInKy - 02 March 2012 10:54 AM

Why do so many people have such a hard time understanding that the existence of mind does not require any explanation beyond the brain? I mean, sure, the nature of consciousness is very mysterious, but so far nothing we have learned about it requires any explanation that can’t be found in the hardware.

Dreaming seems to confirm that. The symbolic processing (and possibly sorting) of our sensory experiencies while awake. These are internal functions and have nothing to do with “receiving” data from another source when we dream.

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Posted: 02 March 2012 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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FreeInKy - 02 March 2012 10:54 AM

Why do so many people have such a hard time understanding that the existence of mind does not require any explanation beyond the brain? I mean, sure, the nature of consciousness is very mysterious, but so far nothing we have learned about it requires any explanation that can’t be found in the hardware.

Part of the problem has been that relatively “modern” psychology has often conceptualized the “mind” as a homunculus (a little man that sits in the control room, aka, the brain, and directs things.)  Such a way of thinking about the “mind” is not far removed from the concept of a massless soul entity, sitting in a portion of the brain, directing things.

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“Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb… We are bound to others, past and present… And by each crime and every kindness… We birth our future.”  Sonmi, 2144.

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Posted: 02 March 2012 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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FreeInKy - 02 March 2012 10:54 AM

Why do so many people have such a hard time understanding that the existence of mind does not require any explanation beyond the brain? I mean, sure, the nature of consciousness is very mysterious, but so far nothing we have learned about it requires any explanation that can’t be found in the hardware.

Because not all men are created equal.  LOL

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Posted: 02 March 2012 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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I think part of the problem is the that there are a lot of ignorant people who write books like the books about Shanti Devi and there are people who are biologicaly predisposed to been religious [ VS Ramachandran talks about a split brain patient who was religious before his brain was split, and after the splitting of the brain- the one part of the bran was religious and the other was atheist] or who has just a strong ego and search for enternal life . Thats why I wanted to find a criticism about this case, because it is cases like this one, that delude people all around the world. If you “ask” google about it you’ll find onely “reincarnation is real” “there is a soul, it was proven” etc But if you dig deeper you’ll find that the case was nothing special at all, however a man who’s afraid to die will find it as strong evidance to ease his anxiety : ] Anyway here is the reoprt [I’m giving it for like 4th time….] if you would like to see the magic of karma http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19371212&id=CG9IAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QQ4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7100,2534256

As for the Indian friend - I answered your thoughts on the previous page, enjoy

[ Edited: 02 March 2012 03:06 PM by georgi ]
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Posted: 02 March 2012 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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@georgi,dear friend
Nahata was a critic and he want to show this case as false because he is a rationalist.Thats why he wrote that even how many facts there also he deny all of them and give his imaginary views of this case.Ian stevenson did not mention any where in “twenty suggestive cases of reincarnation” that kedarnath used to visit a shop before shanti devi`s house.

[ Edited: 03 March 2012 01:12 AM by Prakash ]
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Posted: 03 March 2012 12:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Prakash - 02 March 2012 10:44 PM

@georgi,dear friend
Nahata was a critic and he want to show this case as false because he is a rationalist.

Thats the point, if it was so true then why didn’t he believe in it? I’m sure every human wants to live forever, why didnt he? Why do you reject this man findings? We here dont reject the information in the report ... are you afraid?

Prakash - 02 March 2012 10:44 PM

Thats why he wrote that even how many facts also there he deny all of them and give his imaginary views of this case.

There are just few facts
The girl knows the name of the man, who visited a shop in front of her house, she knew his profession, thats all. Then her uncle makes investigation by himself and finds the “husband”, he [the “husband”] tells his cousin to go to see the girl, and sends a letter to the uncle, that his cousin will see the girl. The girl recognizes that this man is cousin, but doesnt know his name. They speak, she guessed that the “husband” have a brother, that his father is alive and thats it. She couldn’t tell how she died, she coudn’t tell the name of the cousin. Then the “husband” goes to the girl and talks with her, again she get some info about his life [once from the cousin, once from the husband himlsef]. Then the newspapers go crazy with the sotry [again information]. Mahatma Gandhi talks with the girl [again information]. The investigators take the girl to the city of Muthra- the city is waiting for her, the corwds are all around- thats how she found the houses. She was led by the crowd, you cannot control the crowd, and the crowd could not evan think that the case was fake, so the people won’t guess that they are actually leading the girl, not helping for the investigation. When asked he recognizes 4 people there- the odler borhter of the husband [he came with a crowd after him; brothers look identical, they share genes; asked if it is the borhter, didn’t say it for sure, and she didn’t tell his name], she recognize her father in law- in front of his house and with crowd around him [again crow wont stay silent and again parents and childrens look alike]; She recognized her mother and father around crowd [they started crying at her sight, wont be hard to guess that the old people who are crying for you, and who the crowd is watching are your parents, having known that they are the last to met]. She said that there was a well in the yard, and there was, but all indian houses had well. She said she had burried money, but there were no money, however “later Kedarnath seid he found them and took them” [why didnt he say at the begging, why didnt he put some meny back if he knew his wife is coming? cound he just said it to make the little girl stop asking where they are? how cound he know there are burried money, if she was the onely one to know]

As for Dr Stevenson- It depends on the year the book was published, however it is possible that it is not in that book [btw, make shure you read it all, it can be at the last pages or something] it could be in other book, his books are hard to find in internet, anyway if so many writers quoted him- 100% he siad it somewhre. The books which said that the husband was visiting sweetmeat shop were all ment to proove the reincarnatio so you argument is bad ;]

Just one thing: Being able to recognize people is 101% brain function. Prosopagnosia (Greek: “prosopon” = “face”, “agnosia” = “not knowing”) is a disorder of face perception where the ability to recognize faces is impaired, while the ability to recognize other objects may be relatively intact. The term originally referred to a condition following acute brain damage, but a congenital form of the disorder has been proposed, which may be inherited by about 2.5% of the population.

edit:
newsmediaimages-article-25293-ryan-gives-rhodri-giggs-stfu-money.jpg Giggs brothers, just to show how much can a borothers look alike

[ Edited: 03 March 2012 01:27 AM by georgi ]
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Posted: 03 March 2012 01:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Prakash - 02 March 2012 10:44 PM

@georgi,dear friend
Nahata was a critic and he want to show this case as false because he is a rationalist.Thats why he wrote that even how many facts there also he deny all of them and give his imaginary views of this case.Ian stevenson did nt mention any where in “twenty suggestive cases of reincarnation” that kedarnath used to visit a shop before shanti devi`s house.

20 individual “suggestive” cases of reincarnation out of 20 billion humans who have walked the earth is not a significant statistic and certainly not scientifically acceptable with any kind of generosity. Even if, during the evolution of man, our DNA has a molecular ancestral “memory” it cannot be called reincarnation of a person. By that measure we are all reincarnations of every living thing that has come before.

[ Edited: 03 March 2012 01:11 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 03 March 2012 09:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Dear friend georgi

All through you argue nicely there are lot of limitations in your arguments.

First think yourself about the questions I am pointing here out and summarise your findings.You can convince by the truth.First comeout from the prejustice mind from all of the bounds and think only with your mind.

According to linda Johnson report

She was able to relate extremely intimate information, such as extramarital affairs of family members, that no one outside the family could possibly have known.

1.How She was able to relate extremely intimate information, such as extramarital affairs of family members, that no one outside the family could possibly have known?


Here is the findings of K.S.Rawat from his research report.

until the age of four she did not speak much. But when she started talking, she was a different girl—she talked about her “husband” and her “children.”

2.Shanti devi when she was just a four years girl told that she got married and she had an husband and a son in muttra.Did a little girl brain that much grown up to know what marriage and husband mean?Children at the age of four just playful.But not in the case of little girl shanti.

She said that her husband was in Mathura where he owned a cloth shop and they had a son. She called herself Chaubine (Chaube’s wife)

3.How she called herself chaubine with out known her husband name as chaubey?According you she could n’t recall her husband name till 9 years age.but it was not the case here.She was just so much religious hindu women.So only did n’t reveal her husband name.Thats not customary of indian wives in hindu families those days. to reveal husband name.So your argument proved wrong as she called herself as chaubine from the begining and but reveal her husband name because of her hindu beliefs.

when she talked repeatedly about it and, over time, narrated a number of incidents connected with her life in Mathura with her husband. On occasions at meals, she would say, “In my house in Mathura, I ate different kinds of sweets.” Sometimes when her mother was dressing her she would tell what type of dresses she used to wear.

 

4.How she narrated number of incidents connected with her life?How she know what type of dresses lugdi wear?

This is from rawath report in his words.
Some memories of hers were revived when she visited the familiar places during her visit. For example, during my visit to Mathura, Lugdi’s sister informed me that Shanti Devi told a number of womenfolk about Lugdi having lent them some money, which they accepted. Shanti’s emotional reactions on meeting relatives from her previous life were very significant. The manner in which she burst into tears on meeting the parents of her past life moved everyone present there. The committees mentioned in their report that it was a blessing that the past lives are forgotten. They felt that by bringing Shanti Devi to Mathura they had taken a big responsibility: ” and we had to forcibly separate her from the parents she had in the previous life.”

5.Why a little girl shanti burust into tears?Did a small girl at her age know that much emotional feelings?

And more findings from rawath report

During my investigations a friend of Kedarnath, 72-year-old Pandit Ramnath Choube told me of a very significant event, which I confirmed from other sources. When Kedarnath was in Delhi to meet Shanty Devi, he stayed at Pandit Ramnath’s place for one night. Every one had gone to retire, and only Kedarnath, his wife, his son Navneet and Shanti were in the room; Navneet was fast asleep. Kedarnath asked Shanti that when she was suffering from arthritis and could not even get up, how did she conceive a child. Shanti, merely a girl of nine, described the whole process of intercourse with him, which left Kedarnath in no doubt that Shanti was his wife Ludgi in her previous life.


6.How a merely a girl of nine,described the whole process of intercourse with him?

about critics Even you forget some of the things happen in this life also.You forget the names of your friends and relitives after some years far from them.But you can identify their faces.But suddenly after you see a friend or reletive face after some 6-9 years you could nt able to recall his/her name immediately.shanti even though in her persent life she recall kanjimal as his husband cousin immediately.but during the corse of time she could nt able to recall his name immediately.So your argument shown in this as wrong.


Nahata wrote a book expressing his doubts about the case.But it was worthy to note that he was a hard core disbeliever of reincarnation.So from that pre justice he wrote that book even facts are clearly againest his arguments.

And according Ian stevenson in his no book it was written that kedarnath often visit a shop whitch was infront of santi’s house.It was just pure imagination of one critic and all the other critics simply fallow it and note it to make their argument correct.But they never know that its the pure imagination of that critic.No where stevenson mentioned it.This is just like giving negative propaganda for the strongest case of reincarnation.
From nuroscience also we can get the truth that consciousness is different from body even though it uses body for its actions.If you did nt believe also the truth never dies.No doubt science is great.But using science limited resources some arrogant scientists make irrelevant findings which are wrong.They dont know now because they are very arrogance about it now.They dont want to listen the truth also.They simply on their pre justice and did nt listen anybody.But truth will win oneday and will win on the scientists who are very limited to their resources.Our mysterious nature of mind still could nt able to find out by science.So there is lot of things to find out by science arrogant scientists.Dont be arrogant.Oneday science arrogance in the limited source will be get wiped out by the Almighty God.I am not telling all scientist are like that.Some are very good at their findings.But few of scientists misguiding the people in the name of science.For them they will learn and will defeat under the truth oneday.This must happen.And for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction also .They will get the the result of misguiding the people also very badly.

[ Edited: 03 March 2012 11:09 PM by Prakash ]
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Posted: 03 March 2012 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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MEMORIES ARE BUILD IN THE BRAIN, IT YOU DONT HAVE THE SAME BRAIN- YOU WONT HAVE THE SAME MEMORIES :D
edit: linda Johnson - born 14 October 1953 so this is your proof :D :D
edit 2: ouuu sorry you sued R.K.Raawath…. haha the funny thing is that eaven google doesnt knbow who this is :D

[ Edited: 04 March 2012 01:13 AM by georgi ]
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Posted: 03 March 2012 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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If you are too drunk to answer now, tomorrow you’ll be too hungover to answer, and on Monday you’ll be embarrassed to answer because you’ll remember what you wrote while you were drunk.  grin

[ Edited: 03 March 2012 03:52 PM by George ]
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Posted: 03 March 2012 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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1.How She was able to relate extremely intimate information, such as extramarital affairs of family members, that no one outside the family could possibly have known?

Noone ever siad this… :D It was said in a book of Linda O. Johnston…. who was born around the 50’s :D D: :D

Shanti devi when she was just a four years girl told that she got married and she had an husband and a son in muttra.Did a little girl brain that much grown up to know what marriage and husband mean?Children at the age of four just playful.But not in the case of little girl shanti

Just stupid… I dont see a reason to anster, but to make you feel better- kids are able to feel more empathy, so what you said is just funny :D

.How she called herself chaubine with out known her husband name as chaubey?According you she could n’t recall her husband name till 9 years age.but it was not the case here.She was just so much religious hindu women.So only did n’t reveal her husband name.Thats not customary of indian wives in hindu families those days. to reveal husband name.So your argument proved wrong as she called herself as chaubine from the begining and but reveal her husband name because of her hindu beliefs.

This guy the Kedarnath visited delhi to buy clothes for his shop and while in delhi he visited a sweeetmeat shop, he might visited it 100 times for 4 years it doesnt metter, what mettres is that he visited it, and that is why SHANTI knows his storie. She could met him 3-4 times… it does not metter, what metters is that she knows the info, and there is a reason- because he visited her hieghbour’s shop

when she talked repeatedly about it and, over time, narrated a number of incidents connected with her life in Mathura with her husband. On occasions at meals, she would say, “In my house in Mathura, I ate different kinds of sweets.” Sometimes when her mother was dressing her she would tell what type of dresses she used to wear.

hahahahahahaahah she knew that, because she saw him buying the sweets from the shop :D eaven if she didnt know it- how many sweet have you eaten ? Ive eaten most of the sweets in Bulgaria and I’m 21, if a girl say “I’m reincarnation fo Gerogi, Whn i was him I used to eat icecream…” would this mean tha she is me? :D

Some memories of hers were revived when she visited the familiar places during her visit. For example, during my visit to Mathura, Lugdi’s sister informed me that Shanti Devi told a number of womenfolk about Lugdi having lent them some money, which they accepted. Shanti’s emotional reactions on meeting relatives from her previous life were very significant. The manner in which she burst into tears on meeting the parents of her past life moved everyone present there. The committees mentioned in their report that it was a blessing that the past lives are forgotten. They felt that by bringing Shanti Devi to Mathura they had taken a big responsibility: ” and we had to forcibly separate her from the parents she had in the previous life.”

hahahaahahahahhaah from the report “cousin : did you lent some money to your firends ? she- I don’t remember” And then she has the info taht Ludgi did have some money :D

During my investigations a friend of Kedarnath, 72-year-old Pandit Ramnath Choube told me of a very significant event, which I confirmed from other sources. When Kedarnath was in Delhi to meet Shanty Devi, he stayed at Pandit Ramnath’s place for one night. Every one had gone to retire, and only Kedarnath, his wife, his son Navneet and Shanti were in the room; Navneet was fast asleep. Kedarnath asked Shanti that when she was suffering from arthritis and could not even get up, how did she conceive a child. Shanti, merely a girl of nine, described the whole process of intercourse with him, which left Kedarnath in no doubt that Shanti was his wife Ludgi in her previous life.

hahaha 72 years old man tellls about a fact that might happened 50 years ago ? :D Were there investigators to report it ? There werent ! I was able to tell how children are born at the age of 3, does it mean that I’m reincarnation of a woman ? :D

I was able to find your “prooves” wrong eaven drunk, this would mean that they are weak :D

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Posted: 03 March 2012 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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It is K S rawat report.Not R K raawath.

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Posted: 03 March 2012 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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No question you answered right.All are your self projected.Again many limitations in every answer.

Shanti devi when she was just a four years girl told that she got married and she had an husband and a son in muttra.Did a little girl brain that much grown up to know what marriage and husband mean?Children at the age of four just playful.But not in the case of little girl shanti
Just stupid… I dont see a reason to anster, but to make you feel better- kids are able to feel more empathy, so what you said is just funny :D

Dont see a reason to answer?Afride before truth?You need not to make me feel better.I know how kids behave at the age of four years.Shanti was completely different at her child age also.Not like other two more kids in her home.

So your answer proved wrong.

.How she called herself chaubine with out known her husband name as chaubey?According you she could n’t recall her husband name till 9 years age.but it was not the case here.She was just so much religious hindu women.So only did n’t reveal her husband name.Thats not customary of indian wives in hindu families those days. to reveal husband name.So your argument proved wrong as she called herself as chaubine from the begining and but reveal her husband name because of her hindu beliefs.

This guy the Kedarnath visited delhi to buy clothes for his shop and while in delhi he visited a sweeetmeat shop, he might visited it 100 times for 4 years it doesnt metter, what mettres is that he visited it, and that is why SHANTI knows his storie. She could met him 3-4 times… it does not metter, what metters is that she knows the info, and there is a reason- because he visited her hieghbour’s shop

No where it was told that kedarnath visited delhi 100 times for 4 years.This is just imagination.In no report it was told that she met him 3-4 times.Again that could sound clearly shows that it is your self imagination.(Logical thinking in your words).But to accept Need proofs.Not self imaginations.Do you have any concrete proofs that shanti met him before 3-4 times in the shop in front of her house.No where that proof is there in any report.Dont be over think.You cant prove it.I told its just a critics self imagination.He just think like you as things may not happen like this.But others also fallow that self imagination.But you cant proove that it was just imagination.
So the answer for this also proved wrong.

when she talked repeatedly about it and, over time, narrated a number of incidents connected with her life in Mathura with her husband. On occasions at meals, she would say, “In my house in Mathura, I ate different kinds of sweets.” Sometimes when her mother was dressing her she would tell what type of dresses she used to wear.

hahahahahahaahah she knew that, because she saw him buying the sweets from the shop :D eaven if she didnt know it- how many sweet have you eaten ? Ive eaten most of the sweets in Bulgaria and I’m 21, if a girl say “I’m reincarnation fo Gerogi, Whn i was him I used to eat icecream…” would this mean tha she is me? :D

Did you get my question?
4.How she narrated number of incidents connected with her life?How she know what type of dresses lugdi wear?

My question is not about sweets.I asked how she narrated number of incidents connected with her life in Mathura?How she know what type dresses ludgi wear?
And your answer is about sweets.That was already told that she never saw kedarnath before in any sweet shop.It was just imagination.In any report it was not given that she met kedarnath in a sweet shop.So shanti never know he is fond of sweets also.But she told that he is fond of sweets.It was her past memory.

So your answer again proved wrong.

Some memories of hers were revived when she visited the familiar places during her visit. For example, during my visit to Mathura, Lugdi’s sister informed me that Shanti Devi told a number of womenfolk about Lugdi having lent them some money, which they accepted. Shanti’s emotional reactions on meeting relatives from her previous life were very significant. The manner in which she burst into tears on meeting the parents of her past life moved everyone present there. The committees mentioned in their report that it was a blessing that the past lives are forgotten. They felt that by bringing Shanti Devi to Mathura they had taken a big responsibility: ” and we had to forcibly separate her from the parents she had in the previous life.”

hahahaahahahahhaah from the report “cousin : did you lent some money to your firends ? she- I don’t remember” And then she has the info taht Ludgi did have some money :D

I told you reason for this.We will forget many incidents happened in this life only.How shanti remember all the incidents happened?she may forget some incidents.Its obvious.

5.Why the little girl shanti burust into tears?Did a small girl at her age know that much emotional feelings?

What is my question and what you answered?I asked you shanti’s emotional reaction on meeting her previous relatives at her little age.
Again no answer for this question.

During my investigations a friend of Kedarnath, 72-year-old Pandit Ramnath Choube told me of a very significant event, which I confirmed from other sources. When Kedarnath was in Delhi to meet Shanty Devi, he stayed at Pandit Ramnath’s place for one night. Every one had gone to retire, and only Kedarnath, his wife, his son Navneet and Shanti were in the room; Navneet was fast asleep. Kedarnath asked Shanti that when she was suffering from arthritis and could not even get up, how did she conceive a child. Shanti, merely a girl of nine, described the whole process of intercourse with him, which left Kedarnath in no doubt that Shanti was his wife Ludgi in her previous life.
hahaha 72 years old man tellls about a fact that might happened 50 years ago ? :D Were there investigators to report it ? There werent ! I was able to tell how children are born at the age of 3, does it mean that I’m reincarnation of a woman ? :D

Again wrong.No one cant able to say at the age of 3 how children born and the intercourse process.From where shanti learn how that process happen in detail and convince kedarnath?She convince him in by saying which are not reveal to any one except lugdi her self known.

 

I was able to find your “prooves” wrong eaven drunk, this would mean that they are weak :D

So it is proven that your answers are wrong not any of my question weak.

[ Edited: 03 March 2012 11:11 PM by Prakash ]
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Posted: 03 March 2012 10:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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georgi - 03 March 2012 03:04 PM

MEMORIES ARE BUILD IN THE BRAIN, IT YOU DONT HAVE THE SAME BRAIN- YOU WONT HAVE THE SAME MEMORIES :D

Even though I dont have this brain also I still have some memories.I can prove it.For example ameba has no brain.But it has memories.Even your two hemisphears remove also you have some memories left.Because of the conscient entity continuously there.Soul use the brain memory center to store memories.Soul thinks through the mechanisum of brain.Even replace hemispheres also sub conscious memory is there in the soul.It stored some memories in sub conscious memory.

Every one have three types of memories.Permanent memories,temporary memories and sub conscious memories.Temporary memories wiped out after the work done.But permanent memories are stored in brain cerebral hemispheres.Sub conscious memory is the memory stored in the soul.If you get an injury permanent memory will loss some extent or completely in some cases.But sub conscious memory which is in the soul did not wiped out.You wont feel that you are a new person after replace hemispheres also.

[ Edited: 26 August 2012 01:08 AM by Prakash ]
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