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lower class whites lack “morality”
Posted: 23 May 2012 01:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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In the case of marriage, I don’t think poverty has much to do with that. Lifelong monogamous relationships are not realistic for many people; and it’s socially easier in today’s world to get divorced, so couples who no longer share the spark are free to do so.

The upper class probably keep their marriages together because of huge financial interests. Basically, they are just taking advantage of the “business side” of marriage itself.  Marriage is a business contract more than anything else.

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Posted: 23 May 2012 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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mid atlantic - 23 May 2012 01:31 PM

In the case of marriage, I don’t think poverty has much to do with that. Lifelong monogamous relationships are not realistic for many people; and it’s socially easier in today’s world to get divorced, so couples who no longer share the spark are free to do so.

The upper class probably keep their marriages together because of huge financial interests. Basically, they are just taking advantage of the “business side” of marriage itself.  Marriage is a business contract more than anything else.

Perhaps marriage is just not as good a “business” for most people, these days.

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Posted: 23 May 2012 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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I agree with George that Zmullin’s posts have very little to indicate anything other than a fertile imagination.

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Posted: 23 May 2012 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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FreeInKy - 23 May 2012 11:32 AM
George - 23 May 2012 09:32 AM

Why are the divorce rates getting worse all the time?

It’s not just divorce rates. It’s stability in general. Nothing is long term anymore. We live in a disposable society. Relationships, homes, careers, consumer goods, nothing is long term. Nobody wants to be locked into any long terms commitments of any kind. I have no idea of the root cause(s). I just have the feeling that this is much bigger than just marriage.

Adovcatus: My guess is that people have unrealistic expectations.  Young people expect love to be like the movies, where you just have great sex all the time.  They don’t understand the concept of building a life together for the long term, putting up with each other’s little faults.

Agree with both statements.

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Posted: 24 May 2012 05:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Agree with what, Asanta? But I guess you had to reply something, right? Murray’s point is that the lower class’s stability is indeed getting worse, but the middle class and the rich are doing fine—actually, their situation is improving. Why? Why doesn’t the middle class “expect love to be like the movies”?

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Posted: 24 May 2012 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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advocatus - 23 May 2012 11:31 AM
George - 23 May 2012 09:32 AM

Why are the divorce rates getting worse all the time? Are the courts more diligent now than they were five years (or even one year) ago? The same goes for the out-of-wedlock childbearing. It wasn’t some type of a “social punctuated equilibrium,” reflecting the invention of birth control pills. It’s getting worse pretty much every year.

My guess is that people have unrealistic expectations.  Young people expect love to be like the movies, where you just have great sex all the time.  They don’t understand the concept of building a life together for the long term, putting up with each other’s little faults.

First, why couch the the issue of increasing divorces as “it’s getting worse”?  It’s just happening. This happens to be a religious-social custom which has gone past it’s prime for the most part.
The main reason, without a doubt is the liberation of modern women. Plain and simple. Look at marriage 300 years ago.  Women were property.  Women were property 150 years ago!  Women had to fight for their civil rights, and are still doing so!
The idea of marriage has lingered on mainly because of it’s religious ties and the lingering idea that it is “the inevitable thing to do.”
As the idea of single parent children become more and more acceptable, the idea of pair-bonding for life becomes less and less idealistic.
Sexual liberation and acceptance also had and has a massive role to play in the disintigrating idea of marriage.  Be it the increased openess of promiscuity(at any degree-relative to history) to the increased openess of homosexuality. And everything in between!  All of this also has a diluting effect on traditional modes of pair-bonding.
And because it is Pair-Bonding we are talking about.  It goes without saying that it is one of the many examples of behavioral evolution going on before our eyes.

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Posted: 24 May 2012 11:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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George - 24 May 2012 05:00 AM

Agree with what, Asanta? But I guess you had to reply something, right? Murray’s point is that the lower class’s stability is indeed getting worse, but the middle class and the rich are doing fine—actually, their situation is improving. Why? Why doesn’t the middle class “expect love to be like the movies”?


I’m agreeing with the statement that people don’t necessarily want to take the time to work out problems anymore, and they don’t have to put up with the bad ones, like spousal and child abuse etc. When a poor woman leaves a very bad relationship, her family is thrust into poverty. Thanks to the woman’s movement, if you are upper middle class and educated, you have resources.

The middle class and rich have resources, MUCH more than the poor and lower class. There is an upper class/wealthy enclave near my home. One of my co-workers wanted to go to their high school to discuss drug and alcohol abuse. The school denied there was even a problem, when my co-worker knew for a fact there was. One of the administrators finally told him that when a child is found to have problems with drugs, the parents just quietly bundled up the child to an expensive and very private drug abuse treatment center. It would be kept low key, people would pretend nothing happened, and ignore that there were 10 children sent off that year… (number made up for an example). The poor and lower class do not have those options.

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Posted: 25 May 2012 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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VYAZMA - 24 May 2012 10:52 AM

First, why couch the the issue of increasing divorces as “it’s getting worse”?  It’s just happening. This happens to be a religious-social custom which has gone past it’s prime for the most part..

Past its prime?  Well, I still think that pair bonding is a good thing.  Most of us do.  That’s why homosexual couples are determined to win the right to have their pair bonding officially recognized as marriages.

I don’t blame Facebook for causing it, just for showing up the symptoms.  When people would rather follow Tweets than actually meet face to face, we have a social problem.

Now, I realize the following isn’t a scientifically valid sample, but I watch “The Newlywed Game.”  smile In earlier seasons, when Carnie Wilson was hostess, they often had older couples, in their 40s or even 50s (second marriages).  But lately they’ve been focusing more on younger couples.  It’s appalling to see so many married couples who don’t seem to know each other at all, having few interests in common.  You get the impression that sex is the only thing they have in common.

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Posted: 25 May 2012 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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I doubt people prefer to tweet each other instead of meeting in person. If anything, I imagine the internet helps to bring people together. Wasn’t the Egyptian uprising largely possible due to the existence of Facebook? On-line dating is also very popular and is probably very helpful to allow people to find partners with similar interests. And then there is our forum. None of us would have ever gotten a chance to communicate and exchange ideas if it wasn’t for the internet. I think you couldn’t be more wrong, advocatus.

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Posted: 25 May 2012 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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advocatus - 25 May 2012 09:14 AM
VYAZMA - 24 May 2012 10:52 AM

First, why couch the the issue of increasing divorces as “it’s getting worse”?  It’s just happening. This happens to be a religious-social custom which has gone past it’s prime for the most part..

Past its prime?  Well, I still think that pair bonding is a good thing.  Most of us do.  That’s why homosexual couples are determined to win the right to have their pair bonding officially recognized as marriages.

I don’t blame Facebook for causing it, just for showing up the symptoms.  When people would rather follow Tweets than actually meet face to face, we have a social problem.

Now, I realize the following isn’t a scientifically valid sample, but I watch “The Newlywed Game.”  smile In earlier seasons, when Carnie Wilson was hostess, they often had older couples, in their 40s or even 50s (second marriages).  But lately they’ve been focusing more on younger couples.  It’s appalling to see so many married couples who don’t seem to know each other at all, having few interests in common.  You get the impression that sex is the only thing they have in common.

  Sex is the only thing they need to have in common! grin

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Posted: 25 May 2012 05:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Vyazma

First, why couch the the issue of increasing divorces as “it’s getting worse”?  It’s just happening. This happens to be a religious-social custom which has gone past it’s prime for the most part.
The main reason, without a doubt is the liberation of modern women. Plain and simple. Look at marriage 300 years ago.  Women were property.  Women were property 150 years ago!  Women had to fight for their civil rights, and are still doing so!
The idea of marriage has lingered on mainly because of it’s religious ties and the lingering idea that it is “the inevitable thing to do.”
As the idea of single parent children become more and more acceptable, the idea of pair-bonding for life becomes less and less idealistic.
Sexual liberation and acceptance also had and has a massive role to play in the disintigrating idea of marriage.  Be it the increased openess of promiscuity(at any degree-relative to history) to the increased openess of homosexuality. And everything in between!  All of this also has a diluting effect on traditional modes of pair-bonding.
And because it is Pair-Bonding we are talking about.  It goes without saying that it is one of the many examples of behavioral evolution going on before our eyes.

I am not so sure that this is a complete explanation of this phenomenon, historically from at least the time of Dickens, and possibly from the time of the Romans, lower class humans living in ghettos have tended not to form “solid” families as they could not support them, did not want to have that type of responsibility and often had to migrate to secure any type of work.

Damn, sorry I can’t stay and talk more but my meds are starting to kick in, time to lay down.  Surgery went well; Doc says I should be back to normal in a couple of weeks.

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Posted: 26 May 2012 03:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Glad to hear that the surgery went good Gary, take it easy and get well quick!

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Posted: 26 May 2012 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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error.

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Posted: 26 May 2012 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Gary-

I am not so sure that this is a complete explanation of this phenomenon, historically from at least the time of Dickens, and possibly from the time of the Romans, lower class humans living in ghettos have tended not to form “solid” families as they could not support them, did not want to have that type of responsibility and often had to migrate to secure any type of work.

Damn, sorry I can’t stay and talk more but my meds are starting to kick in, time to lay down.  Surgery went well; Doc says I should be back to normal in a couple of weeks.

I’m glad to hear your getting well.  I wouldn’t say it is a complete explanation, but in my opinion it is extremely relevant.  Of course I’m relating to modern rates of divorce and family relationships.  Which is what is being considered when people opine about increasing divorce rates and “lower family values”.
As you point out socio-economic factors also play a part.  In early modern times however, poverty was often a glue which held family units together.(by necessity, the whole family was required in order to maintain food, shelter etc…)
The industrial revolution began to erode that, and led to trends that would liberate women.  Along with technology and cultural “revolutions”. Which were all symbiotic mainly.
Above the term cultural “revolutions” is a broad term that deserves it’s own thread.

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