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Overprotecting the kids or more paranoia?
Posted: 17 February 2012 10:02 AM   [ Ignore ]
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I have not read Murray’s new book, and probably won’t because I don’t want him to have any of my money; but the idea that lack of morals is the cause of the working class troubles is very laughable. However, it’s not entirely inaccurate to label many healthy young white Americans as lazy slobs, that is somewhat true. The reason for that is too much indulgence. Our fathers and grandfathers were largely motivated with force by their parents, but force has been off the menu for the younger generations

I am not planning on reading the book either, I prefer history to propaganda.

Again I am starting a new thread because this article from the Buffalo News is a bit off the article topic:

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial-page/from-our-readers/another-voice/article733834.ece

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Posted: 17 February 2012 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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garythehuman - 17 February 2012 10:02 AM

I am not planning on reading the book either, I prefer history to propaganda.

Propaganda, eh? Murray is, IMO, one of the most important social scientist. I think most people don’t like him not because they disagree with him, but because they uncomfortably sense that he may be right. This is the reason why I can’t stand all that humanist babble.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Center for Limited Inquiry

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Posted: 17 February 2012 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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George - 17 February 2012 10:28 AM
garythehuman - 17 February 2012 10:02 AM

I am not planning on reading the book either, I prefer history to propaganda.

Propaganda, eh? Murray is, IMO, one of the most important social scientist. I think most people don’t like him not because they disagree with him, but because they uncomfortably sense that he may be right. This is the reason why I can’t stand all that humanist babble.

Only importnt to the right wing because he suports their beliefs.  Just like those “social scientists” that don’t believe in evolution or climate change.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 11:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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It’s important to me and I am not a conservative. Data are data, Gary. There are plenty of people who are not right wingers who often quote Murray (Pinker, for example).

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Posted: 17 February 2012 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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garythehuman - 17 February 2012 11:17 AM
George - 17 February 2012 10:28 AM
garythehuman - 17 February 2012 10:02 AM

I am not planning on reading the book either, I prefer history to propaganda.

Propaganda, eh? Murray is, IMO, one of the most important social scientist. I think most people don’t like him not because they disagree with him, but because they uncomfortably sense that he may be right. This is the reason why I can’t stand all that humanist babble.

Only importnt to the right wing because he suports their beliefs.  Just like those “social scientists” that don’t believe in evolution or climate change.

Two things are certain:
1) it is 100% fair to draw conclusions and provide commentary for a book you haven’t read and refuse outright to consider;

2) Social scientists are literally the best group from which to adduce evidence on biology and climatology.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Charles Collom - 17 February 2012 11:26 AM
garythehuman - 17 February 2012 11:17 AM
George - 17 February 2012 10:28 AM
garythehuman - 17 February 2012 10:02 AM

I am not planning on reading the book either, I prefer history to propaganda.

Propaganda, eh? Murray is, IMO, one of the most important social scientist. I think most people don’t like him not because they disagree with him, but because they uncomfortably sense that he may be right. This is the reason why I can’t stand all that humanist babble.

Only importnt to the right wing because he suports their beliefs.  Just like those “social scientists” that don’t believe in evolution or climate change.

Two things are certain:
1) it is 100% fair to draw conclusions and provide commentary for a book you haven’t read and refuse outright to consider;

2) Social scientists are literally the best group from which to adduce evidence on biology and climatology.

I haven’t read the book, but I am familiar with the argument, it is called “faulting the victim”, we covered that in Soc. 101.  I have also seen firsthand the effects of plant closings and loss of a livable amount of income does to family and community structures.  I didn’t have the time to sit around and do the statistics, I was too busy picking up the suicides and 35 years later am still dealing with the results of the breakup of the families of my friends down to the third generation.  It was the loss of adequate and stable income not the absence of middle-class morality that caused the problems.

And guess what I am trained in the social sciences myself, at least to the BA level and then muxh practical experience as well as extensive independent reading, so I don’t need to waste time reading what is obviously a piece of political propaganda defending the .1% that control the world economy.

I have no doubt that Murray’s statistics are generally a reflection of reality, what he has wrong is that he has cause and effect reversed.  I repeat, it is lack of adeqaute income and oppurtunity that is causing the “moral brekdown” not the “moral breakdown” causing the loss of adequate income and oppurunity.  Even the Ecoomist, hardly a political liberal News mag was laughing at this.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I can give you a number of very positive reviews on Murray’s new book. But you are not interested, right? You have already made up your mind, based on a few personal experiences and a review which confirms your believe. And all that without even reading the book. What a shame, Gary.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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As I have said before, I don’t have the time to read propaganda,  the statics may be correct but the assumptions are wrong.

How come you are not answereing this arguement?

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Posted: 17 February 2012 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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What I know about Murray comes from listening to several in depth interviews with him; I found his “workmanship” somewhat questionable. 1. His field (sociology) is not suited for studies that deal with hard data.  2. Concerning “The Bell Curve”, it’s been established that I.Q. tests are not scientifically accurate (at least in the case of race and intellegence.)  3. “The Bell Curve” was not peer reviewed before publication.  4. He is invovled with several conservative organizations.  There’s more I’m forgetting,however those examples make me leary of him.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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George - 17 February 2012 12:07 PM

I can give you a number of very positive reviews on Murray’s new book. But you are not interested, right? You have already made up your mind, based on a few personal experiences and a review which confirms your believe. And all that without even reading the book. What a shame, Gary.

I’ll look at positive reviews.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 12:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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garythehuman - 17 February 2012 12:10 PM

How come you are not answereing this arguement?

Because I’ve actually read Murray and the opinions on his research by those who know what they are talking about and I think it would be a waste of my time to discuss this with you. Sorry.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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mid atlantic - 17 February 2012 12:19 PM

I’ll look at positive reviews.

HERE is one.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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George - 17 February 2012 12:44 PM
mid atlantic - 17 February 2012 12:19 PM

I’ll look at positive reviews.

HERE is one.

Well, it’s not a convincing review; after reading the primer that is linked, along with several other descriptions of the book, I have to say that Murray is very wrong on several points. I’ll have to start another post about them.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I am not going to discuss the book until I read it. (I do have other reviews, but I can just imagine the response I would get if I post them. I guess anybody is free to do the homework on their own.)

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Posted: 17 February 2012 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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George - 17 February 2012 12:44 PM
mid atlantic - 17 February 2012 12:19 PM

I’ll look at positive reviews.

HERE is one.

okay I read this review, still doesn’t address my point of “blaming the victim

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