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Qurans on the Barbie
Posted: 28 February 2012 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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VYAZMA - 28 February 2012 10:51 AM

On a personal note however, I do welcome wholeheartedly any inflammation of relations with islam. I welcome all inflammations with any religion or between the religions.

Yeah, let’s start a war, or even better let’s reopen Auschwitz!

VYAZMA, if I remember well, you think we have no free will. So those Muslims became what they are without any chance to be different. And therefore you want to heat up the conflict between the modern western world and their enlightened ideas, with these stupid Muslims? Is that humanistic? Rational?

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Posted: 28 February 2012 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 28 February 2012 09:29 AM

The problem remains however that if you wish to get people to change, you don’t do so by going in and offending their cultural sensibilities from the gitgo. Having a better idea is all well and good but if a people decide you’re not even worth listening to because you you show a complete lack of respect for them, you’re merely urinating into the wind.

The problem is that a lot of muslims get offended pretty easily, and their standard reaction is to kill the offender. Couldn’t they be a little bit more rational?

You see a Christian burning the Kuran? No problem: burn a Bible!
A newspaper publishes a cartoon about Allah’s profet? Just publish another making fun of Jesus!

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Posted: 28 February 2012 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 28 February 2012 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.

Exactly. Look at it this way. Imagine that the Muslim world had emerged strong and dominant into the modern era while the Christian west languished in poverty and despair. Imagine it was the Persian Empire that managed to colonize Europe and the Americas. From the West, looking toward the dominant Middle East, can there be any doubt that the response would be to wage Holy War at every opportunity? I could see everything totally reversed, with Christians being the attackers.

Religion as a tool of war has generally been most effective when wielded by the less powerful, rather then the more powerful.

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Posted: 28 February 2012 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.


Cap’t Jack

Jack,

I thought I should give you a friendly garde! before you go agreeing with me. I don’t think you been have on this forum long enough to know that I have a reputation of being a racist, even though I obviously don’t agree that I am one. (Otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this.) Jared Diamond may think that the causes are cultural (or geographic), but I would take it one step further and add that those conditions left an imprint on the people. That imprint would obviously be a genetic one. If the desert environment selected for people with certain traits, then those traits are embedded not only in the population’s culture, but in the population itself. Culture, or more specifically Islam in this case (or their economic situation), would be some kind of an extended phenotype where the genes directly affect the environment. IOW, many Arabs are violent, because they are, well, violent.

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Posted: 28 February 2012 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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George - 28 February 2012 01:11 PM
Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.


Cap’t Jack

Jack,

I thought I should give you a friendly garde! before you go agreeing with me. I don’t think you been have on this forum long enough to know that I have a reputation of being a racist, even though I obviously don’t agree that I am one. (Otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this.) Jared Diamond may think that the causes are cultural (or geographic), but I would take it one step further and add that those conditions left an imprint on the people. That imprint would obviously be a genetic one. If the desert environment selected for people with certain traits, then those traits are embedded not only in the population’s culture, but in the population itself. Culture, or more specifically Islam in this case (or their economic situation), would be some kind of an extended phenotype where the genes directly affect the environment. IOW, many Arabs are violent, because they are, well, violent.

I call bullshit on that.

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Posted: 28 February 2012 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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FreeInKy - 28 February 2012 12:20 PM

Religion as a tool of war has generally been most effective when wielded by the less powerful, rather then the more powerful.

Nietzsche Mark II?

Slave morality in feeling ressentiment does not seek redress for its grievances by taking revenge through action, as the noble would, but by setting up an imaginary revenge. It therefore needs enemies in order to sustain itself, unlike noble morality, which hardly takes enemies seriously and forgets about them instantly having dealt with them. The weak deceive themselves into thinking that the meek are blessed and will win everlasting life, thereby ultimately vanquishing the strong. They invent the term “evil” to apply to the strong, and that which proceeds from strength, which is precisely what is “good,” according to the noble, aristocratic valuation. These latter call their inferiors “bad”—in the sense of “worthless” and “ill-born” (as in the Greek words κακος and δειλος)—not “evil.”

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Posted: 28 February 2012 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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FreeInKy - 28 February 2012 01:13 PM
George - 28 February 2012 01:11 PM
Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.


Cap’t Jack

Jack,

I thought I should give you a friendly garde! before you go agreeing with me. I don’t think you been have on this forum long enough to know that I have a reputation of being a racist, even though I obviously don’t agree that I am one. (Otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this.) Jared Diamond may think that the causes are cultural (or geographic), but I would take it one step further and add that those conditions left an imprint on the people. That imprint would obviously be a genetic one. If the desert environment selected for people with certain traits, then those traits are embedded not only in the population’s culture, but in the population itself. Culture, or more specifically Islam in this case (or their economic situation), would be some kind of an extended phenotype where the genes directly affect the environment. IOW, many Arabs are violent, because they are, well, violent.

I call bullshit on that.

What for?

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Posted: 28 February 2012 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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FreeInKy - 28 February 2012 12:20 PM
Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.

Exactly. Look at it this way. Imagine that the Muslim world had emerged strong and dominant into the modern era while the Christian west languished in poverty and despair. Imagine it was the Persian Empire that managed to colonize Europe and the Americas. From the West, looking toward the dominant Middle East, can there be any doubt that the response would be to wage Holy War at every opportunity? I could see everything totally reversed, with Christians being the attackers.

Religion as a tool of war has generally been most effective when wielded by the less powerful, rather then the more powerful.

I can’t see that. The European colonization of the Americas, Mid east, South Asia was driven by practical concerns like commerce, trade routes ect. - not transcendental beliefs. The Muslim warriors were and are fighting for their God. It’s probable that the West emerged strong in the modern era because it’s culture was reality based; the mid east culture was not.

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Posted: 28 February 2012 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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mid atlantic - 28 February 2012 03:44 PM
FreeInKy - 28 February 2012 12:20 PM
Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.

Exactly. Look at it this way. Imagine that the Muslim world had emerged strong and dominant into the modern era while the Christian west languished in poverty and despair. Imagine it was the Persian Empire that managed to colonize Europe and the Americas. From the West, looking toward the dominant Middle East, can there be any doubt that the response would be to wage Holy War at every opportunity? I could see everything totally reversed, with Christians being the attackers.

Religion as a tool of war has generally been most effective when wielded by the less powerful, rather then the more powerful.

I can’t see that. The European colonization of the Americas, Mid east, South Asia was driven by practical concerns like commerce, trade routes ect. - not transcendental beliefs. The Muslim warriors were and are fighting for their God. It’s probable that the West emerged strong in the modern era because it’s culture was reality based; the mid east culture was not.

You have a point about the motive for colonization of the new world. But I still maintain that the primary reasons for violent Islamic extremism have a lot more to do with the balance of power and wealth than anything having to do with religion. And that if the situation were reversed, only the name of the religion would be changed.

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Posted: 28 February 2012 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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mid atlantic - 28 February 2012 03:26 PM
FreeInKy - 28 February 2012 01:13 PM
George - 28 February 2012 01:11 PM
Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.


Cap’t Jack

Jack,

I thought I should give you a friendly garde! before you go agreeing with me. I don’t think you been have on this forum long enough to know that I have a reputation of being a racist, even though I obviously don’t agree that I am one. (Otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this.) Jared Diamond may think that the causes are cultural (or geographic), but I would take it one step further and add that those conditions left an imprint on the people. That imprint would obviously be a genetic one. If the desert environment selected for people with certain traits, then those traits are embedded not only in the population’s culture, but in the population itself. Culture, or more specifically Islam in this case (or their economic situation), would be some kind of an extended phenotype where the genes directly affect the environment. IOW, many Arabs are violent, because they are, well, violent.

I call bullshit on that.

What for?

For being offensive and racist and dumb.

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Posted: 28 February 2012 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Thanks for the heads up George and I’ m now into Clark’s book. Not yet ready to finger wag an label because your thesis is new to me and the idea of a genetic code imprinting a violent nature of a subrace or an ethnic group is not something that I’ve studied. Remember, my background is strictly historical and this is Plowing new ground so for now I’ll stick with my original thesis, I.e. culture. What I would like to know is how you came about the contention that genetics drives all aspects of culture, namely a collectively violent nature. Is this principally from Clark or do you have other sources to pull from? Just asking, an please don’t photoshop my avatar into and Easter bunny for spite!


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 28 February 2012 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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FreeInKy - 28 February 2012 05:11 PM
mid atlantic - 28 February 2012 03:26 PM
FreeInKy - 28 February 2012 01:13 PM
George - 28 February 2012 01:11 PM
Thevillageatheist - 28 February 2012 12:04 PM

That won’t work either, they respect Jesus too! I suspect that what George has been preaching all along may be the underlying cause and that is the culture of the area. Add that to a lack of economic stability and a theocrocratic form of government and you have a beehive of trouble. IMO Islam may be the catalyst but not the raison d’être.


Cap’t Jack

Jack,

I thought I should give you a friendly garde! before you go agreeing with me. I don’t think you been have on this forum long enough to know that I have a reputation of being a racist, even though I obviously don’t agree that I am one. (Otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this.) Jared Diamond may think that the causes are cultural (or geographic), but I would take it one step further and add that those conditions left an imprint on the people. That imprint would obviously be a genetic one. If the desert environment selected for people with certain traits, then those traits are embedded not only in the population’s culture, but in the population itself. Culture, or more specifically Islam in this case (or their economic situation), would be some kind of an extended phenotype where the genes directly affect the environment. IOW, many Arabs are violent, because they are, well, violent.

I call bullshit on that.

What for?

For being offensive and racist and dumb.

Data that is offensive is not to be ignored just because it is offensive.

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Posted: 28 February 2012 08:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Quoting George:

I have a reputation of being a racist.

  Yeah, but a lovable racist.  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 01 March 2012 05:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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No, Jack, Clark doesn’t explain why people are violent, but does a pretty good job explaining why some people are less violent. And he surely does a better job at it than Pinker in his latest book. The best part is that Clark actually thought while writing the book that the reasons were cultural and realized only after publishing it that there must be more to it than just culture.

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