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The UN has raised the estimated death toll in Syria up to 5,400….
Posted: 21 February 2012 11:19 PM   [ Ignore ]
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I just sat here at work crying at my desk after watching a clip of a father crying over his dead son who just died today from the shelling in Homs. I have two daughters. One who is 15 months, and another who is just over 6 weeks old. What is happening right now in Syria is absolutely horrifying. I don’t think I’ve ever felt more strongly about the US sending troops overseas and blasting those murderers to hell than I do now.

I understand that the issue is much more complex than I’m making it, but I’m just wondering if this is one of those times when war WOULD be justified. I’m curious. I want to know what your individual stances are on this issue.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 12:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I feel exactly the same watching these horrors and believe that something should be done about that. But war..? The problem with war is that always more innocents die than the dictators from which we seek to liberate them. 
This is why I favor the method Obama seems to be employing, with aid of our current technology. I believe in small surgical strike aimed at specific individuals rather than employing a blanket destruction of an entire country is far more effective. I believe more civilians were killed during our war with Iraq than Saddam Hussein killed during his brutal reign.
Emotional reactions to crimes against humanity are natural. But the solution cannot be worse than the crimes. The best way IMO, is to take time for planning and when an opportunity presents, take out the criminals. This will minimize costs in both lives on both sides and treasure invested. This may take a year or so, but eventually an opportunity will present itself. We need to learn patience and cold calculation, not rush off unprepared into a completely uncertain situation.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 01:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Write4U - 22 February 2012 12:06 AM

I feel exactly the same watching these horrors and believe that something should be done about that. But war..? The problem with war is that always more innocents die than the dictators from which we seek to liberate them. 
This is why I favor the method Obama seems to be employing, with aid of our current technology. I believe in small surgical strike aimed at specific individuals rather than employing a blanket destruction of an entire country is far more effective. I believe more civilians were killed during our war with Iraq than Saddam Hussein killed during his brutal reign.
Emotional reactions to crimes against humanity are natural. But the solution cannot be worse than the crimes. The best way IMO, is to take time for planning and when an opportunity presents, take out the criminals. This will minimize costs in both lives on both sides and treasure invested. This may take a year or so, but eventually an opportunity will present itself. We need to learn patience and cold calculation, not rush off unprepared into a completely uncertain situation.

I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said, but….a year? Really? How many more lives are we supposed to let get extinguished before we “figure out a plan?” What about the shelling? At least deploy the airforce over there and destroy their artillery so they can’t keep bombing innocent neighborhoods!

What about deploying our special forces over there to train the locals and ex-military that want to fight? What about helping them build walls and trenches. Evacing out the women and children? Something? Is it our relationship with China that is keeping us from unilaterally making a decision here?

[ Edited: 22 February 2012 01:57 AM by Cloak ]
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Posted: 22 February 2012 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Simple answer: we are not that country anymore.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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traveler - 22 February 2012 07:25 AM

Simple answer: we are not that country anymore.

What is “that country” that you are referring to?

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Posted: 23 February 2012 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Cloak - 22 February 2012 08:09 PM
traveler - 22 February 2012 07:25 AM

Simple answer: we are not that country anymore.

What is “that country” that you are referring to?

“That country” is the one that was far and above the wealthiest, strongest, and morally respected of any state on the planet. But even “that country” was respected not because it came to the rescue of others but because of its might and the freedom of its people. Ironically, the thing that fed our growth is now poisoning our ability to sustain what we have. Of course that’s oil.  And because of that, our place in the world has changed dramatically. There are tragedies all over the globe; not just Syria. We can no longer afford to place troops on the ground in every conflict for which there is atrocity. If we are lucky, we will restore our place in the world as a reasonable broker so that the leaders of other countries might seek our council. We have a long way to go.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 06:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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When was the last time the U.S. was morally respected above any state on the planet? Don’t forget that what U.S. is doing now in the Middle East, they used to do before in Central America and Asia prior to that. The U.S. might have been morally respected for a few years right after the WWII; before that, nobody even noticed that the U.S. existed.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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George - 23 February 2012 06:44 AM

When was the last time the U.S. was morally respected above any state on the planet? Don’t forget that what U.S. is doing now in the Middle East, they used to do before in Central America and Asia prior to that. The U.S. might have been morally respected for a few years right after the WWII; before that, nobody even noticed that the U.S. existed.

Yep, after WWII is what I was going for - it wasn’t that long ago, George. You seem to be in attack mode. I did say that we were not respected for what we did for others, but rather for our might and our own freedoms. I’m aware of our history and am not using a rosy paint brush.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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No, traveler, I am not in attack mode; unless one adds a smiley, things usually read a lot worse than what they are. I agree with you that the U.S. has been admired for its might, but I am simply not aware of the U.S. being respected for its morals. The northern part of the U.S. doesn’t differ at all from the Western Europe and the south has always been an embarrassment. I know you, guys, are all very proud of your founding fathers, the constitution and all that stuff, but the rest of the world doesn’t really see it that way. The U.S. is generally seen as a place to make money, but that’s about it.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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George - 23 February 2012 08:24 AM

No, traveler, I am not in attack mode; unless one adds a smiley, things usually read a lot worse than what they are. I agree with you that the U.S. has been admired for its might, but I am simply not aware of the U.S. being respected for its morals. The northern part of the U.S. doesn’t differ at all from the Western Europe and the south has always been an embarrassment. I know you, guys, are all very proud of your founding fathers, the constitution and all that stuff, but the rest of the world doesn’t really see it that way. The U.S. is generally seen as a place to make money, but that’s about it.

You don’t think that people in other countries envy our freedom? And yeah, we are proud of those who escaped kingdom and pope and also created a pretty good document. We aren’t proud of what we did to the natives. But mostly, what I (and many others) am sorry to see is what we have done since that time. And yep, I don’t get the south but I think it has to do with primary/secondary education. Similar stupidity is often seen in rural areas of northern states as well.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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traveler - 23 February 2012 08:42 AM

You don’t think that people in other countries envy our freedom?

No, I really don’t think they do. They envy your wealth.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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George - 23 February 2012 08:59 AM
traveler - 23 February 2012 08:42 AM

You don’t think that people in other countries envy our freedom?

No, I really don’t think they do. They envy your wealth.

I think both. Certainly the poor envy wealth, but those lacking freedom must also envy the free (e.g., Muslim woman vs American woman)

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Posted: 23 February 2012 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Sure, but I still don’t see how that makes the U.S. to be the most morally respected state on the planet. A woman from Estonia, Japan or Chile is as free as the American woman. But not as rich…

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Posted: 23 February 2012 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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George - 23 February 2012 09:20 AM

Sure, but I still don’t see how that makes the U.S. to be the most morally respected state on the planet. A woman from Estonia, Japan or Chile is as free as the American woman. But not as rich…

You are talking present day. I was talking about the years just after WWII. We even cleared that up in your second post. How were the freedoms in Estonia, Japan, and Chile just after WWII?

Certainly in today’s climate the US is not the leader in freedom. I did not say that. It isn’t even the leader in wealth if you look at the general population. I don’t see the need to state the obvious - that richer people elsewhere don’t envy our wealth and that free people elsewhere don’t envy our freedom; today.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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traveler - 23 February 2012 12:02 PM

You are talking present day. I was talking about the years just after WWII. We even cleared that up in your second post. How were the freedoms in Estonia, Japan, and Chile just after WWII?

Okay. But then, around that time you had in the U.S. “McCarthyism” where thousands of Americans were accused of being communists and treated “accordingly,” and the mistreatment of blacks lasted long after WWII. I doubt an Estonian woman was less free in the USSR during the 1950s than a black woman in the U.S.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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George - 23 February 2012 01:12 PM
traveler - 23 February 2012 12:02 PM

You are talking present day. I was talking about the years just after WWII. We even cleared that up in your second post. How were the freedoms in Estonia, Japan, and Chile just after WWII?

Okay. But then, around that time you had in the U.S. “McCarthyism” where thousands of Americans were accused of being communists and treated “accordingly,” and the mistreatment of blacks lasted long after WWII. I doubt an Estonian woman was less free in the USSR during the 1950s than a black woman in the U.S.

We are in agreement. There are obviously specifics (blacks in the south in the 40’s) that can make my statement false, but in general I stand by my statement of world perception just after WWII. There are plenty of things about my country (and yours and everyone else’s) that suck. I’m just in a good mood today and you can’t bring me down.

I swam 1500M, biked 10K, and ran 5K today. That puts me in a good mood.

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