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The Threat of Islam
Posted: 22 February 2012 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Hey everybody, just some thoughts here that came to my mind today…

“The Threat of Islam”

On September 11, 2001 the unthinkable happened. The United States of America were attacked on their own soil. Since this tragic day there has been a sentiment of suspicion towards Middle Eastern people and especially those of the Muslim faith. Very well understandable in the immediate aftermath, but the perceived threat of Islam towards Western society TODAY, more than a decade later, is at best ridiculous and at worst a self-fulfilling prophecy born in paranoia.

Every day I look with hope, and lately, given the massacres in Syria, with pain, at the Middle East. (I am for intervention there, as in Lybia. - But either way, it’s a region giving birth.) - Not entirely comparable to the European Renaissance but still birth pangs that will have lasting influence. - Lasting influence of a renewed “Muslim Empire” I am told. Soon running over the glorious civilization of the West with its humane Christian values and hold on the true truth of the true religion. - I’m sorry, but I don’t believe this. It’s nonsense.

Why the fear of a Muslim Empire anyway? In case it would come. Weren’t we all forced to accept Christianity in the first place? Think Constantine. Think Charlemagne. Think Saxon resistance. Think inquisition. Think the Americas without the Conquistadores. - It’s a matter of time, not of truth. And time is moving ever forward.

But anyway, there’s no use talking about Islam or Muslim neighbors. Any thinking person knows the truth. What is cause to worry is not the Middle East. Certainly not in the West. What is cause to worry is the deep-seated barbarian blood slowly being heated by people seeking their fifteen minutes not knowing what the hell they’re dealing with. If there’s any threat towards Western civilization in the near future it is its own deep-seated fascism. A multi-national coalition of hate-filled racists. And every country has them and they’re more than happy to co-operate. (Heine’s reminder of Teutonic rage and Pascal’s cheerful religious murderer have not lost their meaning.)

The hate- and fear-mongers hammering the danger of Islam into people’s brains (most notably on networks like Fox News) might do so believing they’re helping “liberty”. What they are doing is feeding Thor.

America is not really beset by this fascist danger. Everybody here comes from somewhere and if there’s one nation on earth nearly absent of racism it’s the USA. (With some rural exceptions.) - But Europe is a different story. The French are deeply French and so are the Germans. The Polish are Polish and the Russians Russian. Nationalism is not multi-cultural as in the U.S. Nationalism is ethnic and it’s “pure”.

I believe in the good in human beings. And I’m so silly as to believe in a better world. A world based on love and reason. A world that was accepted, finally, after bloodshed unspeakable, even by the “barbarian” Europeans. And they’re its model output today if you forget about the nutty underground - The same will happen in the Middle East. In time. Maybe a long time given impatient thinking, but a short one looking at history. - There is this human blood-bond and rage deep inside. It’s in every nation and people. It can be conquered, and it can be revived. Let’s conquer, not feed it.

Any feedback on these thoughts?

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Posted: 22 February 2012 12:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I hope that you are correct.  My understanding of Islam, however, leads me to believe that of the major religions, it is most likely to do harm worldwide and in the longer term future.  If the world continues to become more advanced, socially, technologically, and economically, then I think, that secularism will prevail more generally and ameliorate the harmful aspects of religions, including Islam. If not, then many of our grandchildren and their grandchildren may well be living under Sharia Law, (which, IMO, would be a travesty).

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Posted: 22 February 2012 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Hey Tim,

Thanks for your response. I just noticed that I should have posted this under “Society and Politics” rather than religion.

I’m not a prophet, obviously, and I might be wrong, although I don’t think so. I see your concern. But I don’t believe sharia law is a threat. - There is this “sharia law is coming” sentiment, but it won’t come. Not in the U.S. at least. Europe is a different story. That’s what I really meant.

Many things on this issue are taken out of context. Islam is as much split, maybe not entirely so but somewhat, like Christianity. There is no “one” Muslim faith. Considering the “golden age” of Islam it was way ahead of Europe scientifically. It’s a culture, not just a religion. As is Christianity.

My point was really not Islam. Although the title was on purpose. I see a much greater threat in the rising neo-nazi movements all over Europe. - The reaction towards “Middle Eastern intrusion into the Western world” is totally understandable. What I meant is that there is a much greater danger beneath.

We do need to guard Western civilization, if you wanna call it that way. But not by force. It was reason that gave us freedom, eventually, and we can’t keep it if we go back to violence.

What I mean is, the neo-nazi underground of Europe is no more underground. They have offices in Austria, the Netherlands, Finland and France. If there is a danger at the moment, it’s not the Muslims, it’s a Nazi reaction towards them.

These people do not seek the freedom of the Western world. Although they might say so. They speak the Christian language and herald freedom. What they seek is control.

Yes, there is this “Muslim threat” somewhere out there. But there’s no definition to it because it doesn’t exist. (It’s like the German RAF. Terror but nothing else.)

As people living in the U.S. I believe there is no threat anywhere. But living in Europe I would rather guard against my skinhead neighbor than against a Turkish or Algerian one.

Everyone knows the horrors the Nazis have orchestrated. They will do so again, nationally, each country on its own. Unless they’re stopped by reasonable discourse.

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“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.” (Heinrich Heine)

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Posted: 22 February 2012 03:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Fundementalist Islam is utterly incompatable with the Western civilisation. In the Euro countries with the worst immigrant troubles, the overly generous welfare systems are letting in the trash from the bottom of the middle eastern heap, they will never adapt to European culture unless they become totally “whitewashed”. Those individuals will have to go.  The nationalists are right to “invoke the spirit of Martel” if necessary. I don’t see what the problem with that is?  Also racism is very much alive in America, I have no clue where you get the idea that it’s only confined to some rural areas.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 04:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Hello Mid-Atlantic,

Thanks for your input. I’m probably misunderstood here. Should have posted on the political thread or titled the thing “The Threat of Fascism”.

Yes, fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with Western society, as is fundamental Christianity or whatever religion. That’s true. But that was not my point. - I should have said it differently.

That people don’t assimilate I think is bullshit. They very well do, at least if they come for the right reasons. Bastards will always be part of the pack. - For my part, I do not see the slightest bit of raciscm anywhere around me. And we’re pretty diverse down here.

But to address your point: Why would the refugees Europe takes in be “trash”? They are human beings seeking shelter. And if they’re criminals they need to be locked away.

Yes, you’re right. No, you’re wrong.

Let’s continue under “politics”. I’ll move the thread.

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“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.” (Heinrich Heine)

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Posted: 22 February 2012 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I am of the opinion that there is nothing inherent in Islam that makes it any more likely to produce radical violence than any other major religion. Remember, it was the Muslim world that was rediscovering, preserving, and advancing classical civilization centuries before the so-called enlightenment, while Europe was mired in superstition.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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You posted a substantial duplicate of this OP in a different folder, which I will now lock. Duplicate posting is not allowed by our rules, as it duplicates conversations. Thanks.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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MikeD, If you wish to continue a thread under a different topic, I believe you can place a request to Admin. I believe, that they are able to move an entire thread with all its posts, if they feel it helps. I’m not sure, but if so, that would be the proper way to do it.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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FreeInKy - 22 February 2012 05:14 PM

I am of the opinion that there is nothing inherent in Islam that makes it any more likely to produce radical violence than any other major religion. Remember, it was the Muslim world that was rediscovering, preserving, and advancing classical civilization centuries before the so-called enlightenment, while Europe was mired in superstition.

Avicenna, Averroes and company definitly represent a “muslim enlightenment”, but they were obviously men of science - not mindless Quran thumpers. Islam itself doesn’t cause the radical violence, it’s the biology of certain people that causes the radical violence.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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MikeD - 22 February 2012 04:50 PM

Hello Mid-Atlantic,

Thanks for your input. I’m probably misunderstood here. Should have posted on the political thread or titled the thing “The Threat of Fascism”.

Yes, fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with Western society, as is fundamental Christianity or whatever religion. That’s true. But that was not my point. - I should have said it differently.

That people don’t assimilate I think is bullshit. They very well do, at least if they come for the right reasons. Bastards will always be part of the pack. - For my part, I do not see the slightest bit of raciscm anywhere around me. And we’re pretty diverse down here.

But to address your point: Why would the refugees Europe takes in be “trash”? They are human beings seeking shelter. And if they’re criminals they need to be locked away.

Yes, you’re right. No, you’re wrong.

Let’s continue under “politics”. I’ll move the thread.

The bastards are the ones we are talking about, they have to be rooted out unless those nations want a permanent oppressed class to deal with. The moderate Muslims are basically invisible.

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Posted: 22 February 2012 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Write4U - 22 February 2012 05:49 PM

MikeD, If you wish to continue a thread under a different topic, I believe you can place a request to Admin. I believe, that they are able to move an entire thread with all its posts, if they feel it helps. I’m not sure, but if so, that would be the proper way to do it.

That wouldn’t be applicable in this case, since the duplicate post is the OP. (But sure, we can move threads to different folders, if you like).

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Posted: 23 February 2012 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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mid atlantic - 22 February 2012 05:58 PM
FreeInKy - 22 February 2012 05:14 PM

I am of the opinion that there is nothing inherent in Islam that makes it any more likely to produce radical violence than any other major religion. Remember, it was the Muslim world that was rediscovering, preserving, and advancing classical civilization centuries before the so-called enlightenment, while Europe was mired in superstition.

Avicenna, Averroes and company definitly represent a “muslim enlightenment”, but they were obviously men of science - not mindless Quran thumpers. Islam itself doesn’t cause the radical violence, it’s the biology of certain people that causes the radical violence.

Yep. Just like guys like the “god hates fags” guy whose name escapes me at the moment. People have always used religion to their own ends. I’m not defending religion because it is indefensible. But just as it is unfair to paint all Christians as doctor killers and gay haters, it’s just as unfair to characterize all Muslims as terrorists.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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I have to disagree here.  I contend that Islam is quite a bit different from other religions.  The brainwashing techniques used by Islam are far more effective than those used by Christians.  As a Muslim baby and a youth you continually hear: “There is one God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet” - over and over again.  After a while, you begin to believe it.  Then you are supposed to pray 5 times a day.  Thus, with Islam you can never escape. 

  When Islam attains a significant majority in a country, Muslim laws and customs are enacted and non-Muslims are suppressed.  It is mandated in the Quran that non-Muslims be allowed to live – but they must become second or third class citizens.  Recall the plight of the Jews and Christian Armenians in the Byzantine Empire.  By the way, there is no such thing as islamaphopia.  This is because a phobia is an irrational fear.  Fear of Islam is very rational.

  With Islam, if you write Satanic Verses – you just might get a death threat.  If you name a Teddy Bear Mohammad – you just might get a death threat.  If you do a cartoon of Mohammad – you just might get a death threat.  So don’t you dare criticize anything Islamic – you could be in deep trouble.

  If you are a Muslim in one of several Muslim cities and you see that two airliners have crashed into the World Trade Center – “Clearly my brothers the attack on America has begun and it is a moment for rejoicing and celebration”.

  It is also a mission of Islam to convert the world to Islam.  Like “Come and join us and accept Allah as we do” (and if you reject our invitation, we just might kill you).  Islam likes to convert others by the sword, but since the Arabs got their pants beat off of them in the 6-day war in 1967, they moved into their second strategy – which is to infiltrate a country – establish communities – breed excessively – and then gradually take over.  As soon as Muslims have a majority in a democracy, they can begin to inflict their religion on non-Muslims.  What do you think would happen if Santorum actually became President?  Might you suspect – just a little bit – that he might want to inflict his religious dogmas on Americans? 

  Sure not all Muslims are terrorists.  Most – like Christian Fundamentalists – do not think for themselves and blindly follow the dictates of their religious leaders.  But what are the numbers here?  What percentage of fundamentalist Christians are likely to go out, stalk, and then kill abortion doctors?  In contrast, what percentages of Muslims in foreign countries are likely to kill Americans when their governments and religious leaders are frequently encouraging them to do so?

  The Muslims in Afghanistan are very much like spoiled children –” if you dare insult me and you don’t do exactly as I want, then I will throw a temper tantrum – and then you’ll be sorry”.  And the world is afraid of these temper tantrums because unlike small children, these guys have guns and rocks and things that burn.  So we will do anything to not offend our dear Muslim Brothers and avoid those horrible tantrums. 

  If only 1% of the Muslims can be encouraged to be violent, and there are 10,000,000 Muslims, then how many violent people do we have to content with?  Is it 6 or 7 or is it somewhat more than that.  You do the math.

  Moving on, you are correct in that there was a time when Muslims were making more contributions to Science and Mathematics than was being made in Europe.  This was due mainly to the policy of the Catholic Church – which was to suppress Science, Logic and Reason – a policy that has continued to this very day.
TT.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Ted Tyler - 23 February 2012 03:01 PM

I have to disagree here.  I contend that Islam is quite a bit different from other religions.  The brainwashing techniques used by Islam are far more effective than those used by Christians.  As a Muslim baby and a youth you continually hear: “There is one God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet” - over and over again.  After a while, you begin to believe it.  Then you are supposed to pray 5 times a day.  Thus, with Islam you can never escape. 

  When Islam attains a significant majority in a country, Muslim laws and customs are enacted and non-Muslims are suppressed.  It is mandated in the Quran that non-Muslims be allowed to live – but they must become second or third class citizens.  Recall the plight of the Jews and Christian Armenians in the Byzantine Empire.  By the way, there is no such thing as islamaphopia.  This is because a phobia is an irrational fear.  Fear of Islam is very rational.

  With Islam, if you write Satanic Verses – you just might get a death threat.  If you name a Teddy Bear Mohammad – you just might get a death threat.  If you do a cartoon of Mohammad – you just might get a death threat.  So don’t you dare criticize anything Islamic – you could be in deep trouble.

  If you are a Muslim in one of several Muslim cities and you see that two airliners have crashed into the World Trade Center – “Clearly my brothers the attack on America has begun and it is a moment for rejoicing and celebration”.

  It is also a mission of Islam to convert the world to Islam.  Like “Come and join us and accept Allah as we do” (and if you reject our invitation, we just might kill you).  Islam likes to convert others by the sword, but since the Arabs got their pants beat off of them in the 6-day war in 1967, they moved into their second strategy – which is to infiltrate a country – establish communities – breed excessively – and then gradually take over.  As soon as Muslims have a majority in a democracy, they can begin to inflict their religion on non-Muslims.  What do you think would happen if Santorum actually became President?  Might you suspect – just a little bit – that he might want to inflict his religious dogmas on Americans? 

  Sure not all Muslims are terrorists.  Most – like Christian Fundamentalists – do not think for themselves and blindly follow the dictates of their religious leaders.  But what are the numbers here?  What percentage of fundamentalist Christians are likely to go out, stalk, and then kill abortion doctors?  In contrast, what percentages of Muslims in foreign countries are likely to kill Americans when their governments and religious leaders are frequently encouraging them to do so?

  The Muslims in Afghanistan are very much like spoiled children –” if you dare insult me and you don’t do exactly as I want, then I will throw a temper tantrum – and then you’ll be sorry”.  And the world is afraid of these temper tantrums because unlike small children, these guys have guns and rocks and things that burn.  So we will do anything to not offend our dear Muslim Brothers and avoid those horrible tantrums. 

  If only 1% of the Muslims can be encouraged to be violent, and there are 10,000,000 Muslims, then how many violent people do we have to content with?  Is it 6 or 7 or is it somewhat more than that.  You do the math.

  Moving on, you are correct in that there was a time when Muslims were making more contributions to Science and Mathematics than was being made in Europe.  This was due mainly to the policy of the Catholic Church – which was to suppress Science, Logic and Reason – a policy that has continued to this very day.
TT.

Ted, I agree with what you have said here, and I appreciate you posting it, so that I do not feel obliged to post a similar response.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Nailed it, Ted. Well said; and a necessary point.

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Posted: 23 February 2012 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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He nailed what? The terrorist are usually middle-class, college-educated young men. Not some religious nuts who have been brainwashed since their childhood. There are many violent Arabs, but they are seldom violent for religious reasons.

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