2 of 8
2
The Threat of Islam
Posted: 23 February 2012 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15435
Joined  2006-02-14

Yeah, I mean there have been plenty of viciously violent Christians throughout history (the crusades, anyone?), plenty of very effective Christian cults (including several in existence now), as well as plenty of urbane, sophisticated, peaceful Moslems.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 February 2012 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2010-01-13

He correctly analyzed and commented on the problems with Islam. It is less a religion than a military conquest strategy. There has been no reformation within Islam. There are no mullahs taking issue with the fatwas that require murder—either on a personal scale, ala Salmon Rushdi, nor on a broader sweep viz the calls for “death to America”,” death to Israel”, death to all apostates, etc. This is official policy and theology from within its clergy.

I’m not talking about a individual terrorist or even a bunch of them together. Let’s call them a criminal or a gang, whatever. These people should be dealt with the same as any other thug or criminal. They do not warrant a global war on “terrorism”, nor should they be providing the government of the United States with an excuse to strip essential personal liberties away from us like they have and will continue to do. However, if you are going to adopt the NRA’s insane slogan that “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.” and substitute Islam for guns in that saying, then I am going to disagree as strongly with you as I do with the NRA.

As an atheist, I find no truth in any religion based on the existence of anything supernatural. That said, if you have a sprained wrist, a bruised knee and ruptured spleen, which are you going to concentrate on fixing first? One of these things is not like the others.

In my opinion, of course.

[ Edited: 23 February 2012 05:18 PM by lreadl ]
 Signature 

“Time spent arguing is, oddly enough, almost never wasted.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”
—Philip K. Dick

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 February 2012 07:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

There are very few mullahs who actually support jihad; and no, it’s not merely my opinion. But I am tired of this topic.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 02:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4574
Joined  2007-08-31
George - 23 February 2012 04:30 PM

He nailed what? The terrorist are usually middle-class, college-educated young men. Not some religious nuts who have been brainwashed since their childhood. There are many violent Arabs, but they are seldom violent for religious reasons.

Right. It is the many years of colonialism, exploitation and oppression that radicalises certain people. The first to do that are in general young and intelligent middle- or even high-class people. (Compare with Baader-Meinhof in Germany). Islam is just the label, a common denominator for most of the ex-colonies. Islam, with ups and downs, got more moderate through the ages. Of course, they also want to profit from the material wellness of the West. It just takes time to get loose of some of their deeply felt intuitions. The muslim countries were just thrown into the modern age, the modernisation was not their organic development as with us.

By taking over the label ‘Islam’ as common denominator for the ‘enemies of the West’, we are just giving more arguments for Muslims to radicalise. It is a very irrational attitude, if we are really striving for a peaceful and enlightened culture.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3121
Joined  2008-04-07
GdB - 24 February 2012 02:02 AM
George - 23 February 2012 04:30 PM

He nailed what? The terrorist are usually middle-class, college-educated young men. Not some religious nuts who have been brainwashed since their childhood. There are many violent Arabs, but they are seldom violent for religious reasons.

Right. It is the many years of colonialism, exploitation and oppression that radicalises certain people. The first to do that are in general young and intelligent middle- or even high-class people. (Compare with Baader-Meinhof in Germany). Islam is just the label, a common denominator for most of the ex-colonies. Islam, with ups and downs, got more moderate through the ages. Of course, they also want to profit from the material wellness of the West. It just takes time to get loose of some of their deeply felt intuitions. The muslim countries were just thrown into the modern age, the modernisation was not their organic development as with us.

By taking over the label ‘Islam’ as common denominator for the ‘enemies of the West’, we are just giving more arguments for Muslims to radicalise. It is a very irrational attitude, if we are really striving for a peaceful and enlightened culture.

I’m with George and Gdb.

 Signature 

Turn off Fox News - Bad News For America
(Atheists are myth understood)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 09:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3328
Joined  2011-11-04

Would any of you, who think that Islam is no threat to the future of secularism, choose to live in a Muslim dominated society, today?

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  50
Joined  2012-02-16

Hi George, Ok, you are getting tired of this topic, so am I, but we should agree to disagree here.

I will take your post:

“He nailed what? The terrorist are usually middle-class, college-educated young men. Not some religious nuts who have been brainwashed since their childhood. There are many violent Arabs, but they are seldom violent for religious reasons.”

And modify it as follows:

“The terrorists are usually middle-class, college-educated young men who have been brainwashed by Islam since their childhood.  There are many violent Arabs, and they are invariably violent for religious reasons.”

Islam, like Christianity, has many styles and flavors – that vary from place to place in the world.

I will be seeking data later in 2012 to confirm or deny my assertions.

TT.

 Signature 

If your belief is true, the data will confirm it.  If your belief is false, then you need faith to believe it.
Religions that demand respect the most - are the religions that merit respect the least.
If you are offended by attacks on your religion, then your religion has programmed you well.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

You don’t need to wait until the end of 2012 to learn that what you’re saying here is factually incorrect. If you read Scott Atran’s Talking to the Enemy you’ll see what I mean. In there, he describes in much detail the characters of the terrorists and the reasons behind the attacks, supported by evidence from scientific studies.

[ Edited: 24 February 2012 11:53 AM by George ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
TimB - 24 February 2012 09:56 AM

Would any of you, who think that Islam is no threat to the future of secularism, choose to live in a Muslim dominated society, today?

Well, I wouldn’t want to live in a Muslim country because I don’t want to get stabbed to death at a football game or get shot or run over by a track at a political protest.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4574
Joined  2007-08-31
TimB - 24 February 2012 09:56 AM

Would any of you, who think that Islam is no threat to the future of secularism, choose to live in a Muslim dominated society, today?

No. What has that to do with the question how we do cope with the problems of of Islam? I did not read Atran’s book, but I heard him on youtube and POI. It makes perfectly sense what he (and George) say. I also met too many very kind Muslims who are just peaceful and just long for being treated respectfully and kindly. The ‘American way’ to treat Muslim countries is just plain wrong (‘Join the army. Go to foreign countries. Get to know other people. And kill them’).

Ted Tyler - 24 February 2012 10:07 AM

The terrorists are usually middle-class, college-educated young men who have been brainwashed by Islam since their childhood.  There are many violent Arabs, and they are invariably violent for religious reasons.

That is as untrue as saying that Andreas Baader and Ulrike Meinhof were brainwashed to communism and terrorism. I suppose that you did some real investigations about the backgrounds of the Muslim terrorists, and sociological research how to change their attitude? Or are you reacting from the same radical gland as the Muslim terrorists do?

It is terrible to see how irrational some secularists become when the topic is religion and its extreme outbursts.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2011-08-15

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/CY-P&V-M.html

I found this info on a Universalist Unitarian author’s site. More food for thought and IMO not all muslims are blood thirsty religious maniacs bent on converting good christians to their medieval lifestyle. Thousands of americans are true believers but don’t run through the streets of Detroit screaming “death to the americans”! Changes in Islamic society must come from within and technology is helping as more people link themselves to the internet and cell phones. It is creating a window through which Islamists are able to look back on their lifestyle. Maybe the Luddites among them will alter their religious beliefs and see that terrorism really accomplishes nothing in the long run. BTW we would be better off convincing the hometown religious zealots that fear converts no one and reason does.


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3328
Joined  2011-11-04
GdB - 24 February 2012 11:30 AM
TimB - 24 February 2012 09:56 AM

Would any of you, who think that Islam is no threat to the future of secularism, choose to live in a Muslim dominated society, today?

No. What has that to do with the question how we do cope with the problems of of Islam? ...

My question was aimed at what may be a denial that there are particular problems with Islam.  In North America the population of Muslims is less than 2%.  As we all agree, the overwhelming majority of Muslims (perhaps especially in societies where they are a minority) are not radicalized militant Jihadists.  So any Muslims that you are likely to meet are probably going to be very nice people.  (Like all religions there are positve socializing elements to the culture. And that is true with Islam.)  Islam however, I would submit has a darker side in the world today than the other major religions and it is growing faster.  Religious freedom, much less freedom from religion is not abided well in majority Muslim nations.  Consider this article on Christophobia in Muslim nations:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/02/05/ayaan-hirsi-ali-the-global-war-on-christians-in-the-muslim-world.html

As far as coping with the problems of Islam, I am simply suggesting that the 1st step is acknowledging the problem.  You suggest that the “American way” to treat Muslim nations is to “Join the army. Go to foreign countries. Get to know other people. And kill them.”  To the extent that you are correct about this, (and to the extent that it is not hyperbole) I am certainly in agreement that this is not what we should do.

The ideal approach, I think, in the long term would be to help all nations become economically successful.  In a world where most people have access to education and the ability to live safely in a functional society, the most egregious problems with radical elements of religion would be minimized and secuolarism would have the best chance to flourish.

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2715
Joined  2011-04-24
TimB - 24 February 2012 09:56 AM

Would any of you, who think that Islam is no threat to the future of secularism, choose to live in a Muslim dominated society, today?

Tim; for the sake of clarity, do you actually mean mean Muslim or Arab dominated society.  They’re two different things.  I woul not want to live in an Arab society, because I find their lifestyle unattractive. OTOH, a muslim society if it was very moderate - that may be tolerable.

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3328
Joined  2011-11-04
mid atlantic - 24 February 2012 02:33 PM
TimB - 24 February 2012 09:56 AM

Would any of you, who think that Islam is no threat to the future of secularism, choose to live in a Muslim dominated society, today?

Tim; for the sake of clarity, do you actually mean mean Muslim or Arab dominated society.  They’re two different things.  I woul not want to live in an Arab society, because I find their lifestyle unattractive. OTOH, a muslim society if it was very moderate - that may be tolerable.

What non-Arab “moderate” muslim dominated society are you thinking of?  e.g., Maylasia and Indonesia may not be as rife with religious intolerance but the problems are there and are probably going to get worse.

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2012 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2715
Joined  2011-04-24
TimB - 24 February 2012 03:54 PM
mid atlantic - 24 February 2012 02:33 PM
TimB - 24 February 2012 09:56 AM

Would any of you, who think that Islam is no threat to the future of secularism, choose to live in a Muslim dominated society, today?

Tim; for the sake of clarity, do you actually mean mean Muslim or Arab dominated society.  They’re two different things.  I woul not want to live in an Arab society, because I find their lifestyle unattractive. OTOH, a muslim society if it was very moderate - that may be tolerable.

What non-Arab “moderate” muslim dominated society are you thinking of?  e.g., Maylasia and Indonesia may not be as rife with religious intolerance but the problems are there and are probably going to get worse.

I was thinking possibly Albania, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Bosnia, some areas in Turkey. Those nations have populations that are nominally muslim, but the levels of faith are quite low.

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 8
2