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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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Rocinante - 10 March 2012 05:22 PM
StephenLawrence - 09 March 2012 01:26 PM

Can you explain what you mean by doing good with guns.

Out of fear of being accused of using anecdotes,  wink  how about a woman using a gun to stop a would-be rapist?  I would call that doing good with a gun.  And as I did before, taking it out of the realm of the anecdote, it is important to point out that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.*

I disagree with those on the left who say when confronted with a rapist a woman should put up no defense and give them what they want.  I would much prefer the woman use her gun to stop it. 

*U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities (1979), p. 31.

Does the Left actually say that?  If that is a common position….. absurd. blank stare

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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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traveler - 10 March 2012 03:15 PM
VYAZMA - 10 March 2012 02:15 PM

Traveller-

OK, Vyazma I’m confused by your statements. Here’s the deal - you write:

1.) I myself could go either way on it.  Yes guns do have an enormous impact on society.  No guns don’t really have a huge impact on society.
2.) Eventually in a few generations I think there would be a massive decrease in gun violence and crime. I’m sure there would.

Given number 2, how can you say number 1?

Because.  Will the number of people being killed or injured from crime go down?  I don’t know.  If you do know, and tell me it will then I’ll believe you.  Cool.
And also yes, because I have guns, I guess I’m a little biased.  After all, I’m not a criminal!!  You see?

I think this is a language issue. You say here that you don’t know, but you made it pretty clear in #2 that you do know. Since you clearly cannot mean both, I have to assume language is getting in the way.

No.  People are injured and killed by knives, fists, clubs, strangualtion, fire, poison etc.  You see?
Will the amount of people being injured or killed by crime go down.  I said by crime. Not guns.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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mid atlantic - 10 March 2012 05:31 PM
Rocinante - 10 March 2012 05:22 PM

I disagree with those on the left who say when confronted with a rapist a woman should put up no defense and give them what they want.  I would much prefer the woman use her gun to stop it. 

Does the Left actually say that?  If that is a common position….. absurd. blank stare

Agreed. That’s what in the business is known as a “straw man argument”. Indeed, that’s one of the worst examples I’ve ever seen.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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mid atlantic - 10 March 2012 05:31 PM

Does the Left actually say that?  If that is a common position….. absurd. blank stare

I don’t know how common it is, but it is certainly not unheard of:

“The best defense is to put up no defense - give them what they want.”

—The late Pete Shields, former President of Handgun Control, Inc. in his book Guns Don’t Die: People Do, p. 125.


I would imagine when asked about what an individual should do if they are confronted by a violent predator like a rapist many on the left may hem and haw or perhaps say the victim should use the one thing rapists fear more than anything else, a cell phone!  rolleyes  I think it is an ideology-based over reliance on the government far too common among the left.  The fact is that the police’s job is not to protect individuals from criminals.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Rocinante - 10 March 2012 05:47 PM

I would imagine when asked about what an individual should do if they are confronted by a violent predator like a rapist many on the left may hem and haw or perhaps say the victim should use the one thing rapists fear more than anything else, a cell phone!  rolleyes  I think it is an ideology-based over reliance on the government far too common among the left.  The fact is that the police’s job is not to protect individuals from criminals.

Shameless.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Hey dougsmith, since I posted the actual quote from one of the founders of the anti-gun movement, will you now admit that it was not a straw man argument?  Or will you avoid it altogether by claiming it an anecdote so not worthy of comment?  Heads you win, tails I lose?

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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Rocinante - 10 March 2012 05:50 PM

Hey dougsmith, since I posted the actual quote from one of the founders of the anti-gun movement, will you now admit that it was not a straw man argument?  Or will you avoid it altogether by claiming it an anecdote so not worthy of comment?  Heads you win, tails I lose?

How about I say that all conservatives think that rape is a gift, because Rick Santorum said it was.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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dougsmith - 10 March 2012 05:49 PM
Rocinante - 10 March 2012 05:47 PM

I would imagine when asked about what an individual should do if they are confronted by a violent predator like a rapist many on the left may hem and haw or perhaps say the victim should use the one thing rapists fear more than anything else, a cell phone!  rolleyes  I think it is an ideology-based over reliance on the government far too common among the left.  The fact is that the police’s job is not to protect individuals from criminals.

Shameless.

Yes, me stating my opinion (“I would imagine,” “may,” “perhaps,” “I think,” ) is shameless. Not!  I’m allowed my opinion.  You are allowed yours.  We may disagree, but the exchange of differing viewpoints is far from shameless. 

The part about it not being the job of the police to protect you is not an opinion.  That part is fact.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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dougsmith - 10 March 2012 05:52 PM

How about I say that all conservatives think that rape is a gift, because Rick Santorum said it was.

First I don’t think I said “all” on the left like you said “all” conservatives.

Secondly you would be absolutely 100% correct in saying that far too many conservatives say rape was a gift.  No doubt about it precisely because Santorum did say that.  But I doubt “all” conservatives think that.  Many?  Perhaps.  All?  Probably not.

Finally your tu quoque doesn’t sting me a bit.  I’m not a conservative.  Santorum is an idiot.  If a woman is raped and she wants the “morning after” pill or if she wants an abortion, that’s her right.  Just as it is her right to have a gun to best stop a rape in the first place. 

I passed your consistency test?  Did you?  wink

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Rocinante - 10 March 2012 05:47 PM
mid atlantic - 10 March 2012 05:31 PM

Does the Left actually say that?  If that is a common position….. absurd. blank stare

I don’t know how common it is, but it is certainly not unheard of:

“The best defense is to put up no defense - give them what they want.”

—The late Pete Shields, former President of Handgun Control, Inc. in his book Guns Don’t Die: People Do, p. 125.


I would imagine when asked about what an individual should do if they are confronted by a violent predator like a rapist many on the left may hem and haw or perhaps say the victim should use the one thing rapists fear more than anything else, a cell phone!  rolleyes  I think it is an ideology-based over reliance on the government far too common among the left.  The fact is that the police’s job is not to protect individuals from criminals.

Not to nitpick, but Shields may be referring to situations where a person is robbed of a small amount of money or something similar at gun point - i.e. the idea that it’s not worth being shot over trivial things.  A woman being sexually victimised, but having the ability (a gun) to stop it is a different story.  I"m aware that some people on the Left may say “give up”, but it seems hard to believe that all say that.  FWIW; I’m not really a “Leftie”, but blanket statements about them can be confusing.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 07:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Rocinante - 10 March 2012 06:08 PM
dougsmith - 10 March 2012 05:52 PM

How about I say that all conservatives think that rape is a gift, because Rick Santorum said it was.

First I don’t think I said “all” on the left like you said “all” conservatives.

Fair enough. Of course, I would expect the vast majority of liberals would disagree with the sentiment you quoted as well.

Rocinante - 10 March 2012 06:08 PM

Secondly you would be absolutely 100% correct in saying that far too many conservatives say rape was a gift.  No doubt about it precisely because Santorum did say that.  But I doubt “all” conservatives think that.  Many?  Perhaps.  All?  Probably not.

I doubt many do at all. My point is that one doesn’t illustrate anything responsibly by using extremes, unless you are explicitly illustrating extremes.

Rocinante - 10 March 2012 06:08 PM

I passed your consistency test?  Did you?  wink

Clearly.

Back to the topic. Leaving aside anecdotes, the notion that having a gun at home makes you safer is bunk.

Re. guns in the home, see HERE:

Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home.

<snip>

Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

There have been a number of such studies, showing broadly similar patterns. IIRC we discussed several of them in the past here.

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Posted: 10 March 2012 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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Personally I believe that blanket statements about anything are confusing. First of all, it may not be a policeman’s job to provide you with personal protection but I am glad that we have them around and I feel safer on the Mall in D.C. For instance when visiting there and on New York streets, especially Times Square. As to the despicable crime of rape, If a woman wants to carry a gun for protection then so be it. Just remember to take a safety course and that you may actually kill your assailant, as in dead. I recommend a body shot as it is easier to hit a human target in the body cavity than to aim for a limb. Any calibre will do, from a 22 to 357 magnum. Remember also that after you have wounded/killed the attacker, when the police arrive to place the gun on the ground and back away with your hands in the air to avoid being shot. You may also want to arrange for a counselor after the incident. Or you could whip out your cell phone and call 911. Taking a self defense course might also help. there are several available. The essential question for those with firearms is when to shoot. Your lightning fast decision may decide someone’s fate and yours too.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 11 March 2012 01:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Since when has “The Left” advocated that “self defense” is not a good option when in fear of your own or your family’s life?
I’d like to see a reliable link to such a statement.

Your citation of Pete Shields is by no means convincing. I can cite a number of nutcases on both the Right and Left. If memory serves we have more guns per capita than any other country in the world. And as far as I know, gun control only speaks to military type assault weapons, not to responsible individual gun ownership for hunting or home protection.

[ Edited: 11 March 2012 03:00 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 11 March 2012 06:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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VYAZMA - 10 March 2012 05:31 PM
traveler - 10 March 2012 03:15 PM
VYAZMA - 10 March 2012 02:15 PM

Traveller-

OK, Vyazma I’m confused by your statements. Here’s the deal - you write:

1.) I myself could go either way on it.  Yes guns do have an enormous impact on society.  No guns don’t really have a huge impact on society.
2.) Eventually in a few generations I think there would be a massive decrease in gun violence and crime. I’m sure there would.

Given number 2, how can you say number 1?

Because.  Will the number of people being killed or injured from crime go down?  I don’t know.  If you do know, and tell me it will then I’ll believe you.  Cool.
And also yes, because I have guns, I guess I’m a little biased.  After all, I’m not a criminal!!  You see?

I think this is a language issue. You say here that you don’t know, but you made it pretty clear in #2 that you do know. Since you clearly cannot mean both, I have to assume language is getting in the way.

No.  People are injured and killed by knives, fists, clubs, strangualtion, fire, poison etc.  You see?
Will the amount of people being injured or killed by crime go down.  I said by crime. Not guns.

OK, but to be fair you did say in #2 that you are sure that there “would be a massive decrease in gun violence and crime.” So you are now saying that you should not have included that bolded part. If that’s the case then I do understand what you are saying. But if gun violence goes down I’m not sure how you could make the case that total number of deaths would not go down.

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Posted: 11 March 2012 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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Rocinante - 10 March 2012 05:22 PM
StephenLawrence - 09 March 2012 01:26 PM

Can you explain what you mean by doing good with guns.

Out of fear of being accused of using anecdotes,  wink  how about a woman using a gun to stop a would-be rapist?  I would call that doing good with a gun.

Yes I agree that was an example of doing good. I thought you meant doing good by shooting someone.

I disagree with those on the left who say when confronted with a rapist a woman should put up no defense and give them what they want.  I would much prefer the woman use her gun to stop it. 

I don’t think the benefits in some cases are worth the negatives of people generally having guns.

Stephen

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