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Posted: 11 March 2012 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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StephenLawrence - 11 March 2012 07:09 AM

I don’t think the benefits in some cases are worth the negatives of people generally having guns.

Stephen

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Posted: 11 March 2012 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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StephenLawrence - 11 March 2012 07:09 AM

I don’t think the benefits in some cases are worth the negatives of people generally having guns.

Yes, this is the way to think of it: as a cost/benefit proposition. Above I outlined the benefits, of which I see three. Hunting, protecting oneself (mostly from people with guns), and target practice.

I think it’s eminently clear that these benefits do not come close to justifying the social costs of having guns. Except, arguably, less powerful long guns for hunting.

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Posted: 11 March 2012 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Let’s do this.  Of those commenting here, assume the following:  It is 1 AM.  You are awakened to the sound of some gang members breaking into your house for a home invasion. 

One question:

What would you do?

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Posted: 11 March 2012 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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We don’t have gang members here but to reply to the scenerio I would :

1. Have my wife dial 911 and stay on the line
2. chamber my 410 with a deer slug and holler that I’m armed
3. shoot the first head that appeared above the bannister because, if someone breaks into your house knowing that you’re there then they mean to do you personal harm. this is not just a robery. Criminals, unless they are desperate for money or drugs will break into homes with no occupants. If they’re pros they know that they don’t have to use deadly force to get what they want and if caught will receive lighter sentences by not using deadly weapons. Of course this scenerio only applies to areas in which gun ownership is legal. What to do in a city? Ballbats and golf clubs!


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Posted: 11 March 2012 10:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 11 March 2012 10:00 AM

We don’t have gang members here but to reply to the scenerio I would :

1. Have my wife dial 911 and stay on the line
2. chamber my 410 with a deer slug and holler that I’m armed
3. shoot the first head that appeared above the bannister because, if someone breaks into your house knowing that you’re there then they mean to do you personal harm. this is not just a robery. Criminals, unless they are desperate for money or drugs will break into homes with no occupants. If they’re pros they know that they don’t have to use deadly force to get what they want and if caught will receive lighter sentences by not using deadly weapons. Of course this scenerio only applies to areas in which gun ownership is legal. What to do in a city? Ballbats and golf clubs!


Cap’t Jack

Then you discover that it was actually your daughter who came home from Iraq and couldn’t wait to surprise her parents.

How ya feel now?

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Posted: 11 March 2012 10:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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Rocinante - 11 March 2012 09:33 AM

Let’s do this.  Of those commenting here, assume the following:  It is 1 AM.  You are awakened to the sound of some gang members breaking into your house for a home invasion. 

One question:

What would you do?

Well, they don’t have guns, so I’d grab a bat. (BTW, what a stupid question)

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Posted: 11 March 2012 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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Then you discover that it was actually your daughter who came home from Iraq and couldn’t wait to surprise her parents.

How ya feel now?

My daughter, a combat veteran would know that I am armed and would NOT be breaking into my home, but would first alert me and the missus (her Mom) of her presence by shouting “surprise, I’m home”. At which point we would spring out of bed and embrace her and a tearful reunion would be had by all. I would feel pretty good BTW!

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 11 March 2012 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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Rocinante - 11 March 2012 09:33 AM

Let’s do this.  Of those commenting here, assume the following:  It is 1 AM.  You are awakened to the sound of some gang members breaking into your house for a home invasion. 

One question:

What would you do?

I dunno Rocinante. I’m more concerned with living in a society in which this is unlikely and not putting myself at risk from this happening.

If the risk of this happening got high enough I’d want a gun. But I’m much more concerned about not finding myself in that position, so it’s a question of how to continue to achieve that in the morally best way.

Stephen

[ Edited: 11 March 2012 02:00 PM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 11 March 2012 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 11 March 2012 12:41 PM

Then you discover that it was actually your daughter who came home from Iraq and couldn’t wait to surprise her parents.

How ya feel now?

My daughter, a combat veteran would know that I am armed and would NOT be breaking into my home, but would first alert me and the missus (her Mom) of her presence by shouting “surprise, I’m home”. At which point we would spring out of bed and embrace her and a tearful reunion would be had by all. I would feel pretty good BTW!

Cap’t Jack

Good points Cap! But you know that this sort of thing has actually happened. Sad. And yes, that reunion would be great!

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Posted: 11 March 2012 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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That’s why I would hope that people who own guns would take a safety course and handle them with EXTREME caution. I agree Traveler, that this incident happens far too often. There’s enough tragedy to go around; we don’t need to develop a bunker mentailty evry time we hear a bump in the night. I recommend a ballbat!

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Posted: 11 March 2012 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 08 March 2012 04:31 PM

Personally, I have no problem with responsible people owning firearms if used properly. However, there should be parameters to this, namely registration, restricted ownership due to past criminal behavior, mental illness, and a total ban on all military type weapons for civilian use. I know this is a heretical position for a gun owner but who needs to hunt deer with a grenade launcher or an automatic weapon? The NRA,s position on this is that all citizens should have the right to collect and use these antipersonnel weapons and BTW that’s what they’re for, but spotrsmen/women, have no need for them. They are very expensive, use tons of ammunition and are usually used by collectors to blow up derelict trucks. So, I have no problem with restricting auto or semi auto weapons. Also, each state’s gun laws vary as do laws in cities, many of whom ban handguns all together. You can’t hunt squirrels in Central Park. So my question to a gun owner is what is your motivation for gun ownership? If you trust the local police then you don’t need one for protection. Put a ball bat beside your bed. 99% of the sounds you here at night are your house settling, and the Mayan calendar isn’t signaling the end of the World as we know it so you don’t need that Uzi to protect the wife and kids. Besides, who wants to spend a thousand dollars on a gun?

Very well said. No need to state my views as you have stated them for me.  grin

Edit: One additional thought: We should treat gun ownership the way we treat the use of automobiles on public highways. It should be a privilege that must be earned by demonstration that one has the knowledge and skill to use responsibly and safely, and subject to being revoked for misuse.

[ Edited: 11 March 2012 02:12 PM by FreeInKy ]
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Posted: 11 March 2012 04:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Traveller-

OK, but to be fair you did say in #2 that you are sure that there “would be a massive decrease in gun violence and crime.” So you are now saying that you should not have included that bolded part. If that’s the case then I do understand what you are saying. But if gun violence goes down I’m not sure how you could make the case that total number of deaths would not go down.

I meant “gun violence and gun crime….”  The same way someone would write: “christmas cards and decorations.”  It’s implied that the decorations are christmas decorations. 
Why don’t you find a better candidate for debate?  I’ve said above explicitly that I can go either way on this issue. I wrote that they can take all the guns away. That would be fine by me.
I have repeatedly said deaths and injuries.(you’re doin’ a lot of cherry pickin’ here)  I tried; not making a case- but positing that death and injury and crime would be carried out by alternative weaponry.  Did you read that part above?

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Posted: 11 March 2012 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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I am no gun expert, though I do have some, but would it be practical that every firearm is fired before it enters the market and several bullets (with their own unique markings) be saved along with the gun’s serial number as well as the buyer’s name? That way the markings on a bullet involved in a crime can be compared to the data base and make it easier to trace.

[ Edited: 11 March 2012 04:12 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 11 March 2012 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Write4U - 11 March 2012 04:09 PM

I am no gun expert, though I do have some, but would it be practical that every firearm is fired before it enters the market and several bullets (with their own unique markings) be saved along with the gun’s serial number as well as the buyer’s name? That way the markings on a bullet involved in a crime can be compared to the data base and make it easier to trace.

All guns are fired at the factory before shipping.  For safety proofing and accuracy testing.  The problem is that guns are stolen often or sold without any chain of custody.
What needs to be done is:
Massive decrease in ammo production.
Absolutely no more selling military surplus guns or ammo, foreign or domestic.
Massive amnestys and buybacks.
Decrease in gun production.
Strict laws that make it virtually impossible to: Straw purchase, sell from owner to owner. Limits on the types and numbers of guns owned.
This would take a few decades or so..but it would be effective.  There’s too many cheap guns and ammo in this country.

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Posted: 11 March 2012 05:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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VYAZMA - 11 March 2012 04:01 PM

Traveller-

OK, but to be fair you did say in #2 that you are sure that there “would be a massive decrease in gun violence and crime.” So you are now saying that you should not have included that bolded part. If that’s the case then I do understand what you are saying. But if gun violence goes down I’m not sure how you could make the case that total number of deaths would not go down.

I meant “gun violence and gun crime….”  The same way someone would write: “christmas cards and decorations.”  It’s implied that the decorations are christmas decorations. 
Why don’t you find a better candidate for debate?  I’ve said above explicitly that I can go either way on this issue. I wrote that they can take all the guns away. That would be fine by me.
I have repeatedly said deaths and injuries.(you’re doin’ a lot of cherry pickin’ here)  I tried; not making a case- but positing that death and injury and crime would be carried out by alternative weaponry.  Did you read that part above?

No problem. I’ve done no cherry-picking. Just trying to understand your posts. If you don’t care, then perhaps you should not post. Just a suggestion.

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