Suggested Reading:
UFO Evidence Volumes I and II, Richard Hall
UFOs and the National Security State, Volumes I and II, Richard Dolan
The UFO Experience, J. Allen Hynek
The Hynek UFO Report, J. Allen Hynek
UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials go on the Record, Leslie Kean (16 other authors)
Suggested UFO Documentaries:
I Know What I Saw
Out of the Blue
UFOs Are Real (1979)
Secret Access: UFOs on the Record
UFOs Best Evidence: Government Cover-up
This being said, I’m openminded about the subject and interested in any ideas you guys have.
If you seriously want to discuss this, do us a favor. I don’t have the time or the inclination to pore over all of those links. How about this. Why don’t you pick the one you consider to be the most credible and give us a synopsis, along with any relevant links. Then we can hash it out. Fair enough?
Your evidence consists of Youtube clips and Above Top Secret forum threads, along with websites dedicated to the “scientific study” of U.F.O’s? Those links show nothing substantial.
If there are really superhuman alien intelligences out there buzzing Earth with their spacecraft, why don’t they just show up on the White House lawn?
Fact is, every time anyone in an aircraft sees a warning light reflected off the windscreen it gets written up as a UFO and never forgotten by the legion of conspiracy theorists. Remember: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Nothing I’ve seen even remotely qualifies.
But ... as we’ve seen time and again here, conspiracy theories never die, no matter the implausibility or lack of evidence.
I agree completely with Occam. Also you need to ask yourself do you believe in UFO’s because the evidence is truly compelling and more so than any alternate explanation or do you believe because you want to believe.
There are a number of reasons to question the idea that UFOs are alien visitors.
1) Interstellar distances are enormous and while I would love to believe that we might someday develop the technology to cross those distances everything we know about physics says that it most likely will never be possible.
2) If an alien species somehow did find a way to cross the immense void between star systems why would they spend 60 years flitting around our skies, abducting and examining us and not doing anything else. If they really are so advanced that they are just studying us with no interest in contacting us why have they been sloppy and stupid enough to be glimpsed hundreds of times. Why do they fly over populated cities at night with bright lights on or in the middle of the day in broad daylight.
3) Why after 60 years is there no solid evidence of the existence of aliens. Every photo ever taken of a UFO is fuzzy and out of focus despite the ubiquitous presence of cameras and good photographers all over the world. We have amazing photos of virtually every other natural and man made phenomena, even those which are extremely rare, but not a single great photo of a UFO that isnt clearly faked. Why is there no physical evidence of any of the landings or contacts. I’m talking about solid undeniable evidence like biological samples which are clearly of extraterrestrial origin not depressions in the soft ground that supposedly have traces of “unidentifiable alloys” in them.
None of this makes any logical sense when there are more rational explanations. If you have a strong desire to believe in aliens then you can come up with a number of unlikely ways to explain away these problems with the alien hypothesis but you would be doing so because its what you want to believe not because its the explanation that best fits the events.
Not knowing what the identity of an object in the sky does not mean you know it is an intelligently-piloted alien craft from another solar system. Not knowing =/= knowing. Not knowing = not knowing.
If there are really superhuman alien intelligences out there buzzing Earth with their spacecraft, why don’t they just show up on the White House lawn?
Perhaps they aren’t even interested in us and are only doing certain business in our area. Remember, when I go out to rake my lawn, I don’t talk to the squirrels out there. then again, I don’t hide from them either.
Remember: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Nothing I’ve seen even remotely qualifies.
Who defines extraordinary? To me there is nothing extraordinary about the concept of alien life and possibly visitation. We don’t know how aliens think, therefore we can’t determine what is extraordinary for them.
If you seriously want to discuss this, do us a favor. I don’t have the time or the inclination to pore over all of those links. How about this. Why don’t you pick the one you consider to be the most credible and give us a synopsis, along with any relevant links. Then we can hash it out. Fair enough?
Yes, I apologize for the sloppy-ness of my post.
Here is an interesting case…
Just after 11 p.m. on October 18, 1973 a U.S. Army reserve crew was flying a helicopter from Columbus to Cleveland, Ohio. They included Captain Lawrence Coyne (19 years flying experience), Lt. Arrigo Jezzi, Sergeant John Healey, and Sergeant Robert Yanacsek. At 2,500 feet and good visibility, the crew noticed a red light to the west, slowly moving south. They assumed it was probably an F-100 out of Mansfield. Very abruptly, however, the light changed course and began to head right at them. Captain Coyne put the helicopter into emergency evasion in a controlled descent. When he tried to confirm the existence of a craft out of Mansfield, his UHF and VHF frequencies went dead. (Mansfield later confirmed there were no aircraft in the area.) The red light continued to close, becoming brighter, while the helicopter descended at the rapid speed of 2,000 feet per minute.
At 1,700 feet above the ground, the crew saw the object streak in front of, then above, the helicopter. It stopped dead for about 10 seconds, filling the entire windscreen. All four crewmembers saw it clearly: it looked like a grey cigar with a small dome on top. One member thought he saw windows. The red light was still there, in the front of the object, and there was a white light on the side and green one on the bottom. The green light swung around like a searchlight and shone into the cabin, bathing it in green light. The object then accelerated to the west, soon appearing as nothing more than a white light. It made a sharp turn and moved northwest where it was lost above Lake Erie.
Meanwhile, the helicopter’s magnetic compass had been spinning at a rate of four revolutions per minute. More seriously, and for no clear reason, the altimeter showed an altitude of 3,500 feet and a climbing ascent of 1,000 feet per minute. Yet the stick (for descent) still pointed down. Coyne had not attempted to ascend, but his aircraft climbed to an altitude of 3,800 feet before he regained control. A few minutes later, radio frequencies returned. A complete inspection the next day found nothing wrong, and the event received a thorough investigation.
By itself, it was an amazing story. It was strengthened, however, by the presence of ground witnesses. A woman while driving with her four children claimed to have seen the entire encounter, including the green beam, which she said lit the ground around her.
1) Interstellar distances are enormous and while I would love to believe that we might someday develop the technology to cross those distances everything we know about physics says that it most likely will never be possible.
Basing your argument on something being impossible isn’t a very good idea.
Skeptic Quote—“Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax.” —William Thomson, Lord Kelvin English scientist, 1899.
2) If an alien species somehow did find a way to cross the immense void between star systems why would they spend 60 years flitting around our skies, abducting and examining us and not doing anything else. If they really are so advanced that they are just studying us with no interest in contacting us why have they been sloppy and stupid enough to be glimpsed hundreds of times. Why do they fly over populated cities at night with bright lights on or in the middle of the day in broad daylight.
Perhaps they don’t care if they are seen. as I have said in an earlier post, I don’t talk or hide from the squirrels in my back yard.
3) Why after 60 years is there no solid evidence of the existence of aliens. Every photo ever taken of a UFO is fuzzy and out of focus despite the ubiquitous presence of cameras and good photographers all over the world. We have amazing photos of virtually every other natural and man made phenomena, even those which are extremely rare, but not a single great photo of a UFO that isnt clearly faked. Why is there no physical evidence of any of the landings or contacts. I’m talking about solid undeniable evidence like biological samples which are clearly of extraterrestrial origin not depressions in the soft ground that supposedly have traces of “unidentifiable alloys” in them.
Would you expect undeniable biological samples of human tissue if a piloted helicopter landed for a few seconds and then took off again?
And there is evidence of a government cover up of the undeniable proof such as bodies and a saucer as you would like.
I respect your position, and it is a strong one. there really isn’t much hard evidence for UFOs. However I believe the little evidence there is suggests differently.
Not knowing what the identity of an object in the sky does not mean you know it is an intelligently-piloted alien craft from another solar system. Not knowing =/= knowing. Not knowing = not knowing.
Agreed.
Seeing an unidentified light in the sky doesn’t convince me. And I never claimed I “knew” anything, in fact I specifically stated I was openminded and interested in other ideas.
What convinces me is the close range sightings of machines making incredible maneuvers as well as displaying intelligent control. Not to mention the abductions and sightings of “alien” beings piloting the craft in question.
Yes. Stories get taller with each re-telling. Human love stories. From the time of the Greeks and their tragedies to our current crop of 500 TV channels, we love stories. We love them so much we tell them so much that over the course of time we add things to make them better and more exciting. It’s human nature. What humans are not very good at are being reliable eyewitnesses.
The part about the compass was not in the original report. It was added in years later. Likewise, the alleged ground witness was not part of the original story and only came forward years later after a newspaper said it was looking for people who saw a UFO. An investigation into their claims said their tale was “spurious.”
The part about no radio contact was due to the copter being beyond line-of-sight range to these airports.
The sighting happened on Oct. 18, which just happened to be at the peak activity of the annual Orionids meteor shower.
It was most likely a meteor-fireball. When told this, Coyne said, “Well, that would sound like a logical explanation.”
Right. A meteor that approaches a helicopter, stops and hovers in front of it, emits a green beam of light through the heli and then flies away in the opposite direction? I’m not convinced.
drawing of the meteor:
Other arguments against that theory:
(1) the duration of the event (an estimated 300 seconds); (2) the marked deceleration and hard-angle maneuver of the object at closest approach; (3) the precisely defined shape of the object; and (4) the horizon-to-horizon flight path.
How could four ground witnesses plus trained military personel misidentify a fireball-meteor?
What convinces me is the close range sightings of machines making incredible maneuvers as well as displaying intelligent control. Not to mention the abductions and sightings of “alien” beings piloting the craft in question.
What about all the past close range sightings of dragons, unicorns, fairies, mermaids, sprites, gnomes, leprechauns, succubi, incubi, werewolves and phantom gassers? In times gone by, people were absolutely convinced of such things, complete with “eyewitness” accounts for all of them. The one constant that we absolutely know for an undeniable fact is that human beings are very easily fooled - both by outside stimuli and by themselves. Simply put, people can’t be trusted to be reliable eyewitnesses.
Eyewitnesses of dragons, unicorns, et al. were products of their time and culture and “saw” what they were expected to see. Once the space age dawned upon us, the mermaids and werewolves faded away and people started “seeing” little green men. This image evolved over time (from robots and giant monsters) to today’s pop culture convention of grey skinned, big black eyes and heads too large to fit through the birth canal of the alleged tiny torso. It is also incredibly conceited to think that aliens would have our exact same basic biological set-up. Evolution here on Earth has provided a countless variety. To think evolution from another galaxy would come up with a body shape that is nearly identical to humans is more incredible than the concept of alien life coming here in the first place. If they do exist (which I think is very likely), and if they ever do come here (which I highly doubt), they won’t look like us.
Voyager when i was younger ( my teens) I was a strong believer in the alien theory of UFO’s and collected everything I could read on the subject but as time went on a pattern emerged that I could not deny. Most of the people who claimed to witness or be victims of a UFO visitation were just not believable. When you become a better judge of human nature you start to notice things about people that allow you to get some insight into their credibility.
Some people who report UFO experiences are outright liars, others truly believe they have seen something extraordinary but are not very objective or critical in their thinking and it shows in their description of what they’ve seen. As I mentioned above al the material and physical evidence that has ever been presented is shabby and amateurish suggesting that it is all fraudulent.
You believe in this not because the evidence supports your view but because you want to believe its true. You believe in this for the same reason that many people believe there is a god. They see god in a stain on the wall or in the survival of a child in a plane crash when a hundred others died. You see evidence where you want to see it not because its the most likely conclusion of the available facts.
As stated above, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You ask who decides what is an extraordinary claim. Our view of the universe and the world around us is made up of theories which have developed over hundreds of years and are supported by multiple lines of evidence. We know that if you hold an apple in your hand and you let it go it will fall. you’ve seen gravity work a thousand times. If someone were to tell you that they could turn off gravity at will and assured you that you could stand under a 1,000 lb boulder while they cut the rope I think you wold require extraordinary evidence before you allowed them to do that. Accepted theories and wisdom can be overturned but it requires evidence that is greater than the evidence supporting the opposing view.
If you are going to propose that some unverifiable reports and fuzzy photos are the result of visitation by an alien species who have somehow over come the laws of physics as we know them you need to come up with extraordinary evidence to support that claim. If you choose to believe this without such evidence then you are taking a leap of faith which is what religious believers do.
Those links show nothing substantial.
