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So I believe in UFOs
Posted: 13 April 2012 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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voyager - 13 April 2012 10:15 AM

I can see that I’m not going to convince you guys….

Thank you for talking with me about this subject, but I don’t think this discussion is leading anywhere.

When I present evidence it is called names, scoffed at, and basically ignored, all without it being explained.

I wish you all a safe and happy travel through whatever stage of life you may be in. I am done here.

Goodbye and good luck

Called names? I don’t remember anyone doing that. Scoffed at? well Ok maybe a little but you can;t say it wasn’t deserved. Ignored??? Are you kidding me? This went on for seven pages. And “all without being explained”? .. why is it that some people find it so painful to admit that we dont currently have an complete explanation for something. Its so painful to them that they are willing to accept any explanation at all just so long as its an explanation even if it makes no sense?

Awwww.. and now he took his ball and went home. :-(

[ Edited: 13 April 2012 12:45 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 14 April 2012 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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A UFO is nothing more than an unidentified flying object and we have all seen objects that we could not I.D. so we can all say we believe in them.  Granted everything I have seen was far too high to I.D. but one thing I am 100% positive of is that no UFO’s have been of alien origin.  I’m not going to give any credence to aliens visiting us until someone first introduces one of the beings to us or shows the world something they left that is so technologically advanced that no human has ever even dreamed of it.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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macgyver - 13 April 2012 12:38 PM

Awwww.. and now he took his ball and went home. :-(

That’s okay, it had a big flat spot anyway…..  tongue rolleye

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Posted: 14 April 2012 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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asanta - 14 April 2012 02:52 PM
macgyver - 13 April 2012 12:38 PM

Awwww.. and now he took his ball and went home. :-(

That’s okay, it had a big flat spot anyway…..  tongue rolleye

LOL  LOL

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Posted: 15 April 2012 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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voyager - 13 April 2012 09:13 AM

So now, can you explain the sighting?

Why is it the skeptic’s job to explain the sighting? You’ve come here making claims - where is the evidence that this case is aliens?

You see, critical thinking allows us to admit that we don’t know what something is. However, “I don’t know what it is, therefore, ALIENS” is just wishful thinking.

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Posted: 15 April 2012 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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King - 15 April 2012 04:46 PM

[Why is it the skeptic’s job to explain the sighting? You’ve come here making claims - where is the evidence that this case is aliens?

You see, critical thinking allows us to admit that we don’t know what something is. However, “I don’t know what it is, therefore, ALIENS” is just wishful thinking.

We tried to explain that for six pages, King. Didn’t work.

Good summary of our thinking, though.

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Posted: 16 April 2012 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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voyager - 13 April 2012 09:38 AM

I understand your position, there is no hard evidence for UFOs.

However, I don’t think all these people are lying or misidentifying things. Many UFO reports sound like stars, planets, comets, etc., and I can identify them as such. I’m not going to rule out the reports that don’t sound like those simply because we can’t identify them.

We can’t consider people good, reliable observers when we are able to identify something and bad observers simply because we can’t.

You can say I don’t know the meaning of evidence and you can say my brain is clouded with science fiction, but what it seems you can’t do is explain the report I just presented?

It’s worse than a lack of “hard evidence”.  The anecdotal evidence you’re providing doesn’t look that good.  I was in the Air Force, too, and this “report” just doesn’t look like an official report.  Look at the title… “Now you see it, now you don’t”?  It’s not a question of people lying, Gordon Cooper for instance.  We just don’t know how that story got attributed to him.

And people do make honest mistakes.  I recently read a story about the extinct Thylacine in Tasmania.  A zoologist was quoted as saying that being extinct hasn’t kept people from reporting seeing them off an on for years.  The trouble is Tasmania is just too small for an animal like that to hide.  :)

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Posted: 16 April 2012 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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It seems I’m always late for these things.  Forgive me for highlighting something earlier.

voyager - 12 April 2012 08:28 AM

That “quote” is from Phillip Klass, a man who has devoted his life to the debunking of UFOs. He is not a reliable source of anything.

See what you’re doing?  You dismiss Klass for no other reason than he’s telling you what you don’t want to hear.  What makes all these UFO websites so honest and trustworthy?  Because they’re telling you what you WANT to hear?  I know what I’m talking about because I fell into the same trap.  When I was a teenager, I believed in UFOs too.  I thought that debunkers just had closed minds.  It took me a long time to realize that I was the one with the closed mind.

Take any given case on here.  You have a description of something that appears to contradict conventional physics.  At that point, about all you can say is, “I don’t know what the object was that caused this sighting.”  THAT’S being open-minded.  Sure it could be an alien spacecraft, but it could be something else you don’t know about.  The second that you decide, “okay, then it MUST BE an alien spacecraft,” the trap has closed.

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Posted: 16 April 2012 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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advocatus - 16 April 2012 09:35 AM

It seems I’m always late for these things.  Forgive me for highlighting something earlier.

voyager - 12 April 2012 08:28 AM

That “quote” is from Phillip Klass, a man who has devoted his life to the debunking of UFOs. He is not a reliable source of anything.

See what you’re doing?  You dismiss Klass for no other reason than he’s telling you what you don’t want to hear.  What makes all these UFO websites so honest and trustworthy?  Because they’re telling you what you WANT to hear?  I know what I’m talking about because I fell into the same trap.  When I was a teenager, I believed in UFOs too.  I thought that debunkers just had closed minds.  It took me a long time to realize that I was the one with the closed mind.

Take any given case on here.  You have a description of something that appears to contradict conventional physics.  At that point, about all you can say is, “I don’t know what the object was that caused this sighting.”  THAT’S being open-minded.  Sure it could be an alien spacecraft, but it could be something else you don’t know about.  The second that you decide, “okay, then it MUST BE an alien spacecraft,” the trap has closed.

Very well stated, advocatus. The exact same dynamic applies to religious circles. When all your information comes from people who are working hard to support the mythology, it’s hard to see all the holes in their positions.

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Posted: 16 April 2012 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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This is an attempt to resurrect a long dead myth that began in 1947 and officially continued until Jan. 1970 whtn the Airforce officially ended Project Blue Book at Wright -Pat Airforce base. The Condon report, blasted by the UFO’ers concluded that no scientific evidence was found to coorborate the existence of extra-terristrials. I have the highest regard for Cooper and the Mercury team for their courage in sitting atop a rocket and literally shot into space but remain skeptical of his findings. Remember this was 1963 and the equipment was primative by today’s standards and people wanted to see “moon men” and UFO’s. So, natural phenonema, pieces of ice floating from off the skin of the ship, exusted gas, meterorites etc. that man hadn’t as yet seen from space filled in the blanks.

And conspiracy theories have always abounded so why not cover ups of aliens. Recall the mid 70’s “men in black” in black cars with black sunglasses visiting local areas (ex. Point Pleasant, Wv-the Mothman scare here in our area). After the book was published everyone began seeing these strange occurances and even blamed them on natural disasters such as the Silver Bridge collapse. Face it, we like aliens and conspiracies and it sells books and movies. So, why not keep the genre alive? THose who aren’t skeptics will contine to see bright colored lights and hear errie whirring sounds. “Watch the skies, everyone, keep watching the skies”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Book


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Posted: 17 April 2012 06:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Another example of pilot mis identification which nearly ended in disaster.

http://news.yahoo.com/sleepy-air-canada-pilot-thought-venus-plane-175953259.html

A sleepy Air Canada pilot first mistook the planet Venus for an aircraft, and then sent his airliner diving toward the Atlantic to prevent an imaginary collision with another plane, an official report said on Monday.

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Posted: 18 April 2012 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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domokato - 12 April 2012 02:35 PM

See this blurb on “constructive memory”:

Although we like to think that our memory operates like recording equipment, that is not actually the case. The molecular mechanisms underlying the induction and maintenance of memory are very dynamic and comprise distinct phases covering a time window from seconds to even a lifetime.[51] In fact research has revealed that our memories are constructed. People can construct their memories when they encode them and/or when they recall them. To illustrate consider a classic study conducted by Elizabeth Loftus and John Palmer (1974) [52] in which people were instructed to watch a film of a traffic accident and then asked about what they saw. The researchers found that, those people who were asked, “How fast were the cars going when they smashed into each other?” gave higher estimates than those who were asked, “How fast were the cars going when they hit each other?” Furthermore, when asked a week later whether they have seen broken glass in the film, those who had been asked the question with smashed were twice more likely to report that they have seen broken glass than those who had been asked the question with hit. There was no broken glass depicted in the film. Thus, the wording of the questions distorted viewers’ memories of the event. Importantly, the wording of the question led people to construct different memories of the event – those who were asked the question with smashed recalled a more serious car accident than they had actually seen. The findings of this experiment were replicated around the world and researchers consistently demonstrated that when people were provided with misleading information they tended to misremember, a phenomenon known as the misinformation effect.[53]
Interestingly, research has revealed that asking individuals to repeatedly imagine actions that they have never performed or events that they have never experienced could result in false memories. For instance, Goff and Roediger [54] (1998) asked participants to imagine that they performed an act (e.g., break a toothpick) and then later asked them whether they had done such a thing. Findings revealed that those participants who repeatedly imagined performing such an act were more likely to think that they had actually performed that act during the first session of the experiment. Similarly, Garry and her colleagues (1996) [55] asked college students to report how certain they were that they experienced a number of events as children (e.g., broke a window with their hand) and then two weeks later asked them to imagine four of those events. The researchers found that one-fourth of the students asked to imagine the four events reported that they had actually experienced such events as children. That is, when asked to imagine the events they were more confident that they experienced the events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory#Memory_Construction

There’s more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Memory_errors_and_biases

The more I learn about the brain, the less I trust it to perceive and remember things correctly. I recently got a ticket for turning right on red illegally. I could have sworn the red light was a circle, not an arrow, and I didn’t see any of the signs saying “no right turn on red” (apparently, there were three). I was distracted by loud music and a talking passenger. Afterwards, I checked it on google street view and sure enough the three signs were there, and I could see that the red light was indeed an arrow. Even knowing about the flaws in memory and perception, I was still very sure the light was a circle.

Thanks, Domakato

I was going to bring this point up, but you did it better than I would have from recall, and you included citations.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 18 April 2012 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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A couple of weeks ago, my sister was asking me what that “bright red star” was that she was every night in the west.  I couldn’t think.  Aldebaran and Betelgeuse are in that general direction, but this time of year they’re not bright enough to stand out.  It could be Mars, but Mars was in the opposite side of the sky, and she was clear about the direction.  I told her that Jupiter was a bright object in the west, but it’s more a pale orangy yellow.  She insisted it looked RED to her.  One evening I finally got her to point it out, and it was Venus!  I still can’t imagine what made her think it was red, though.

If the person gets the idea that what she saw was a paranormal event it gets even worse, because they will not hesitate to confabulate to make it sound more mysterious.  It’s not a question of them lying or hoaxing or making it up.  They’re just misremembering.

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Posted: 18 April 2012 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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I have a great real life example of a constructive memory incident.

Recently I was reminiscing with an old friend about things that happened to us in childhood. He recalled a funny incipient that he remembered involving him, me, and my little brother. We laughed about the incident, then I reminded him that it never really happened—we had just told the story to our friends as if it did because, well, that’s part of what kids do.

At first he was incredulous. He could remember vividly many details of the story. He was sure it had really happened. But later I checked with my brother just to be sure. And he agreed with me—the three of us had concocted the story, then told it and re-told it so many times that our friend actually formed a memory of it, as it it had actually happened.

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Posted: 18 April 2012 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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Actually, FreeInKy, everybody does that, not only kids. This is why we can never be fully rational. We are shaped by our memories and those memories are often wrong. The only way to get around this problem—although being irrational is not necessarily a problem: it wouldn’t have evolved if it were a problem—is through science.

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