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Is purposeless torture moral?
Posted: 12 April 2012 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Is purposeless torture moral?

Most governments seem to believe that torture is an immoral and evil thing and most do not have what we would call a torture chambers. Let’s ignore Guantanamo Bay and other exceptions please.

Religions do not seem to agree with this because religions promise a place of torture for evil souls and some believers will even drop a church that preaches that there is no hell. It seems that some believers want badly that there be this place of purposeless torture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_rmQuagpY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGwwma5VZo&feature=relmfu

Hell is a place of purposeless torture and pain. It is used purely for revenge retribution and cruelty.

Some say we choose hell and some think that God, as our judge, sentences us to it. Some think it is eternal while some think that it and its occupants are eventually dumped into a lake of fire and destroyed. A long period of torture to some and a short term of torture to others.

From a moral standpoint, to even create such a place would not be moral.
Is it moral for God to use or let others choose to use his torture chamber called hell or the lake of fire?

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DL

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Posted: 12 April 2012 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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The vast majority of people have a physical and mental recoil and revulsion to torture-whether it’s purposeful or not, or whether it’s being inflicted upon them or they are just observing it.
This biological reaction is interpreted as violating moral codes. These moral codes have evolved for along time and have helped societies form and evolve.
That is a PHYSICAL and MENTAL recoil!! It isn’t related to some imaginary soul or godly presence.  But of course feel-free to continue believing so.

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Posted: 12 April 2012 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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My first response when I saw the title of this thread was, “Is torture with a purpose moral?”

Occam

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Posted: 12 April 2012 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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VYAZMA - 12 April 2012 09:16 AM

The vast majority of people have a physical and mental recoil and revulsion to torture-whether it’s purposeful or not, or whether it’s being inflicted upon them or they are just observing it.
This biological reaction is interpreted as violating moral codes. These moral codes have evolved for along time and have helped societies form and evolve.
That is a PHYSICAL and MENTAL recoil!! It isn’t related to some imaginary soul or godly presence.  But of course feel-free to continue believing so.

Goodness, I do not believe in such a place.
I just wondered how any sane Christian would want or demand it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

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DL

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Posted: 12 April 2012 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Oops . Duplicate.

[ Edited: 12 April 2012 11:22 AM by Greatest I am ]
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Posted: 12 April 2012 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Occam. - 12 April 2012 09:41 AM

My first response when I saw the title of this thread was, “Is torture with a purpose moral?”

Occam

I think we could build a scenario that would say yes but it would have to include known facts to the torturer and a damned good justification for doing so.
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DL

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Posted: 12 April 2012 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Occam. - 12 April 2012 09:41 AM

My first response when I saw the title of this thread was, “Is torture with a purpose moral?”

Exactly. It’s sort of an oxymoron, isn’t it?

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Posted: 12 April 2012 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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FreeInKy - 12 April 2012 11:28 AM
Occam. - 12 April 2012 09:41 AM

My first response when I saw the title of this thread was, “Is torture with a purpose moral?”

Exactly. It’s sort of an oxymoron, isn’t it?

Are you saying that you cannot fathom a situation where torture might have purpose enough to ignore it’s usual immorality?

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DL

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Posted: 12 April 2012 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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VYAZMA - 12 April 2012 09:16 AM

The vast majority of people have a physical and mental recoil and revulsion to torture-whether it’s purposeful or not, or whether it’s being inflicted upon them or they are just observing it.
This biological reaction is interpreted as violating moral codes. These moral codes have evolved for along time and have helped societies form and evolve.
That is a PHYSICAL and MENTAL recoil!! It isn’t related to some imaginary soul or godly presence.  But of course feel-free to continue believing so.

The greatest I am makes a great point.

Many people do think that some deserve to go to hell. And almost everyone thinks that some, at least, deserve bad stuff to happen to them.

Stephen

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Posted: 12 April 2012 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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StephenLawrence - 12 April 2012 11:51 AM

Many people do think that some deserve to go to hell. And almost everyone thinks that some, at least, deserve bad stuff to happen to them.

If free will is an illusion, then no one “deserves” anything, good or bad.

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Posted: 12 April 2012 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Torture is always immoral, in my view. The usual reason given for torture is to extract information. And it has been shown that it is a lousy way to get reliable information. If the idea is to punish someone, then that’s even worse. The only valid reason for using punishment, in my view, is to modify behavior, as with a child or an animal. Torture is both ineffective and far too severe to be used to behavior modification. That leaves only retribution, which is never moral.

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Posted: 12 April 2012 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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FreeInKy - 12 April 2012 12:13 PM
StephenLawrence - 12 April 2012 11:51 AM

Many people do think that some deserve to go to hell. And almost everyone thinks that some, at least, deserve bad stuff to happen to them.

If free will is an illusion, then no one “deserves” anything, good or bad.

Right, so it’s of pragmatic importance, as we feel very differently depending upon whether we believe in free will or not.

Stephen

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Posted: 12 April 2012 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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FreeInKy - 12 April 2012 12:15 PM

That leaves only retribution, which is never moral.

And yet it’s free will that is supposed to make it deserved.

So very odd that you wonder if it’s of pragmatic importance?

Stephen

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Posted: 12 April 2012 01:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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StephenLawrence - 12 April 2012 11:51 AM
VYAZMA - 12 April 2012 09:16 AM

The vast majority of people have a physical and mental recoil and revulsion to torture-whether it’s purposeful or not, or whether it’s being inflicted upon them or they are just observing it.
This biological reaction is interpreted as violating moral codes. These moral codes have evolved for along time and have helped societies form and evolve.
That is a PHYSICAL and MENTAL recoil!! It isn’t related to some imaginary soul or godly presence.  But of course feel-free to continue believing so.

The greatest I am makes a great point.

Many people do think that some deserve to go to hell. And almost everyone thinks that some, at least, deserve bad stuff to happen to them.

Stephen

I blush. Thanks.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 12 April 2012 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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FreeInKy - 12 April 2012 12:13 PM
StephenLawrence - 12 April 2012 11:51 AM

Many people do think that some deserve to go to hell. And almost everyone thinks that some, at least, deserve bad stuff to happen to them.

If free will is an illusion, then no one “deserves” anything, good or bad.

Was it Einstein who said that even a murderer does not deserve punishment but that we would still lock him up for self-protection?

He would be right I think as we all contribute to creating murderers. None of us live in a vacuum and all effect each other.

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DL

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Posted: 12 April 2012 01:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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FreeInKy - 12 April 2012 12:15 PM

Torture is always immoral, in my view. The usual reason given for torture is to extract information. And it has been shown that it is a lousy way to get reliable information. If the idea is to punish someone, then that’s even worse. The only valid reason for using punishment, in my view, is to modify behavior, as with a child or an animal. Torture is both ineffective and far too severe to be used to behavior modification. That leaves only retribution, which is never moral.

I think that we could build a scenario that would say that yes, there may be instances where it could be moral to torture but it would have to include known facts to the torturer and a damned good justification for doing so.

Let me see. A criminal has hidden an A bomb in your city that will go off in less time than it takes to evacuate a million people. He admits this to his torturer.

I think it may be morally justified then to try to torture the information out of him.

The good of the many in this case would need to be placed above the good of the one to be tortured and even above the good mental health of the one doing the torturing.

Do you agree or is it more moral not to try to save a million people?

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DL

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