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Is purposeless torture moral?
Posted: 13 April 2012 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 10:15 AM

I think a scenario like that would call for torture.  You would need someone that could evaluate the perpetrator well, and from there estimate if they can be ‘broken’.  However, just having some people commit torture simply to get revenge on the individual for planting the bomb - that would be counterproductive.

Asanta - 13 April 2012 12:29 PM

I don’t. Torture has never been shown to be more effective than good police work. It would just be pointless torture. We did not get one piece of substantively useful information out of any of the water boarding sessions in Guantanamo.

So then, because you think torture would not work, you would just let the criminal sit there as the clock ran out on the million. Is that right?

Would you feel the same way knowing that all your friends and family are a part of that million that will soon die?

Regards
DL

Edited to correct quotation symbols since it apeared, incorrectly, that Asanta has made the first statement.

[ Edited: 13 April 2012 01:42 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 13 April 2012 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 01:00 PM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 10:15 AM
Greatest I am - 12 April 2012 01:10 PM
FreeInKy - 12 April 2012 12:15 PM

Torture is always immoral, in my view. The usual reason given for torture is to extract information. And it has been shown that it is a lousy way to get reliable information. If the idea is to punish someone, then that’s even worse. The only valid reason for using punishment, in my view, is to modify behavior, as with a child or an animal. Torture is both ineffective and far too severe to be used to behavior modification. That leaves only retribution, which is never moral.

I think that we could build a scenario that would say that yes, there may be instances where it could be moral to torture but it would have to include known facts to the torturer and a damned good justification for doing so.

Let me see. A criminal has hidden an A bomb in your city that will go off in less time than it takes to evacuate a million people. He admits this to his torturer.

I think it may be morally justified then to try to torture the information out of him.

The good of the many in this case would need to be placed above the good of the one to be tortured and even above the good mental health of the one doing the torturing.

Do you agree or is it more moral not to try to save a million people?

Regards
DL

I think a scenario like that would call for torture.  You would need someone that could evaluate the perpetrator well, and from there estimate if they can be ‘broken’.  However, just having some people commit torture simply to get revenge on the individual for planting the bomb - that would be counterproductive.

Good and moral answer. Thanks.

Regards
DL

You forgot to add IMO.

And you still need to work on those quotes so we can tell, for example, what Asanta wrote and what you wrote. Basic stuff… (Yay, you’re learning. Thanks)

[ Edited: 13 April 2012 05:58 PM by traveler ]
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Posted: 13 April 2012 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 01:06 PM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 10:15 AM

I think a scenario like that would call for torture.  You would need someone that could evaluate the perpetrator well, and from there estimate if they can be ‘broken’.  However, just having some people commit torture simply to get revenge on the individual for planting the bomb - that would be counterproductive.

Asanta - 13 April 2012 12:29 PM

I don’t. Torture has never been shown to be more effective than good police work. It would just be pointless torture. We did not get one piece of substantively useful information out of any of the water boarding sessions in Guantanamo.

So then, because you think torture would not work, you would just let the criminal sit there as the clock ran out on the million. Is that right?

Would you feel the same way knowing that all your friends and family are a part of that million that will soon die?

Regards
DL

Edited to correct quotation symbols since it apeared, incorrectly, that Asanta has made the first statement.

False analogy. Not torturing does not mean taking no other avenues to solve the problem. Why waste time torturing, and chasing down false clues when good police work is actually the best answer.

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Posted: 13 April 2012 11:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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asanta - 13 April 2012 05:46 PM
Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 01:06 PM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 10:15 AM

I think a scenario like that would call for torture.  You would need someone that could evaluate the perpetrator well, and from there estimate if they can be ‘broken’.  However, just having some people commit torture simply to get revenge on the individual for planting the bomb - that would be counterproductive.

Asanta - 13 April 2012 12:29 PM

I don’t. Torture has never been shown to be more effective than good police work. It would just be pointless torture. We did not get one piece of substantively useful information out of any of the water boarding sessions in Guantanamo.

So then, because you think torture would not work, you would just let the criminal sit there as the clock ran out on the million. Is that right?

Would you feel the same way knowing that all your friends and family are a part of that million that will soon die?

Regards
DL

Edited to correct quotation symbols since it apeared, incorrectly, that Asanta has made the first statement.

False analogy. Not torturing does not mean taking no other avenues to solve the problem. Why waste time torturing, and chasing down false clues when good police work is actually the best answer.

Good police work can sometimes include discerning torture though.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 01:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 11:09 PM

Good police work can sometimes include discerning torture though.

Examples?

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Posted: 14 April 2012 01:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 10:04 AM

[We are not discusing the efficacy of torture. I am asking if even a failed attemp should be made to save a million people?
Regards
DL

..and the difference between totally ineffective torture and just getting down on your knees and praying is????

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Posted: 14 April 2012 01:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 01:00 PM

Good and moral answer. Thanks.

Regards
DL

Translation: he agrees with my view

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Posted: 14 April 2012 03:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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asanta - 14 April 2012 01:55 AM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 11:09 PM

Good police work can sometimes include discerning torture though.

Examples?

Operational security forbids me to give details; I have tortured people and gotten what I want from them however, thats how I know it can be effective.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 04:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 April 2012 03:19 AM
asanta - 14 April 2012 01:55 AM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 11:09 PM

Good police work can sometimes include discerning torture though.

Examples?

Operational security forbids me to give details; I have tortured people and gotten what I want from them however, thats how I know it can be effective.

I either call bullshit, or I think you are despicable. Not sure if you’re serious here.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 05:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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asanta - 14 April 2012 01:59 AM
Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 01:00 PM

Good and moral answer. Thanks.

Regards
DL

Translation: he agrees with my view

Exactly. That’s why I wrote that he forgot to add IMO to his response. Ridiculous.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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traveler - 14 April 2012 04:59 AM
mid atlantic - 14 April 2012 03:19 AM
asanta - 14 April 2012 01:55 AM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 11:09 PM

Good police work can sometimes include discerning torture though.

Examples?

Operational security forbids me to give details; I have tortured people and gotten what I want from them however, thats how I know it can be effective.

I either call bullshit, or I think you are despicable. Not sure if you’re serious here.

I’m serious; but it’s not that bad.  The person wasn’t killed or disabled - I bled a little bit, but this person didn’t bleed at all.  I hope that helps.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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asanta - 13 April 2012 05:46 PM
Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 01:06 PM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 10:15 AM

I think a scenario like that would call for torture.  You would need someone that could evaluate the perpetrator well, and from there estimate if they can be ‘broken’.  However, just having some people commit torture simply to get revenge on the individual for planting the bomb - that would be counterproductive.

Asanta - 13 April 2012 12:29 PM

I don’t. Torture has never been shown to be more effective than good police work. It would just be pointless torture. We did not get one piece of substantively useful information out of any of the water boarding sessions in Guantanamo.

So then, because you think torture would not work, you would just let the criminal sit there as the clock ran out on the million. Is that right?

Would you feel the same way knowing that all your friends and family are a part of that million that will soon die?

Regards
DL

Edited to correct quotation symbols since it apeared, incorrectly, that Asanta has made the first statement.

False analogy. Not torturing does not mean taking no other avenues to solve the problem. Why waste time torturing, and chasing down false clues when good police work is actually the best answer.

How can a made up analogy be wrong? smile

The original said that no time was available.
Adding a bunch of caveats is not allowed.
Use what was given.

Are you going to let the million die?

Regards
DL

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Posted: 14 April 2012 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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asanta - 14 April 2012 01:57 AM
Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 10:04 AM

[We are not discusing the efficacy of torture. I am asking if even a failed attemp should be made to save a million people?
Regards
DL

..and the difference between totally ineffective torture and just getting down on your knees and praying is????

You have no way of knowing if the torture will bear fruit or not.

Are you willing to let a million die on your assumption that it will not?

Regards
DL

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Posted: 14 April 2012 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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asanta - 14 April 2012 01:59 AM
Greatest I am - 13 April 2012 01:00 PM

Good and moral answer. Thanks.

Regards
DL

Translation: he agrees with my view

Of course.
I always have the right view. LOL.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 14 April 2012 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 April 2012 10:18 AM
traveler - 14 April 2012 04:59 AM
mid atlantic - 14 April 2012 03:19 AM
asanta - 14 April 2012 01:55 AM
mid atlantic - 13 April 2012 11:09 PM

Good police work can sometimes include discerning torture though.

Examples?

Operational security forbids me to give details; I have tortured people and gotten what I want from them however, thats how I know it can be effective.

I either call bullshit, or I think you are despicable. Not sure if you’re serious here.

I’m serious; but it’s not that bad.  The person wasn’t killed or disabled - I bled a little bit, but this person didn’t bleed at all.  I hope that helps.

Nah, I still think your actions were moronic. Hope that helps.  wink

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