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In memoriam: After years of health problems, Facts has finally died
Posted: 29 April 2012 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Bryan - 25 April 2012 01:50 PM

Odd factoid to accompany the parody.

Rep. West says “as many as” 81 Democrats in Congress are communists.  That means that the actual number is on a range from 0 to 81.  Who has a problem with that?  Could there be more than 81?

Isn’t this the post that started the so-called quote? In fact, he said: “I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.” and here is the recording and excellent comment about it: LINK

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Posted: 30 April 2012 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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I strongly suspect that this is political hubris on his part but here are a few of his other rants:


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/12/13-outrageous-allen-west-comments-house-democrats-communists-more.html

And the idea that there are Communists in Congress is laughable. they wouldn’t have made the local cut. The only vocal Communist candidate for Pres. or any other office for that matter was Gus Hall. Most people have never even heard of him.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 30 April 2012 08:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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traveler - 29 April 2012 10:56 AM

Isn’t this the post that started the so-called quote? In fact, he said: “I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.” and here is the recording and excellent comment about it: LINK

We’re dealing with Moyers’ silliness in a different thread.

You’ve quoted the portion of West’s statement was lopped off in earlier media reports (“It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus”).  So what’s the problem with seeing his point?  There’s no legitimate comparison to Joe McCarthy.

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Posted: 30 April 2012 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 30 April 2012 07:23 AM

And the idea that there are Communists in Congress is laughable.

Ever heard of “rebranding”?

Seriously, why is it laughable?  There’s a socialist who caucuses with the Democrats (and is a member of the Progressive Congressional Caucus). I pointed out in a related thread that the political goals the Communist Party is willing to list looks like boilerplate Democratic Party platform material.

Laughable.  Really?

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Posted: 30 April 2012 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Bryan - 30 April 2012 08:10 AM
traveler - 29 April 2012 10:56 AM

Isn’t this the post that started the so-called quote? In fact, he said: “I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.” and here is the recording and excellent comment about it: LINK

We’re dealing with Moyers’ silliness in a different thread.

You’ve quoted the portion of West’s statement was lopped off in earlier media reports (“It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus”).  So what’s the problem with seeing his point?  There’s no legitimate comparison to Joe McCarthy.

I’ll just say “fine” to everything you say - the only point I was trying to make is that your post was the one in this thread that misquoted West and started the 0-81 counting mistake. The rest of the politics is for you to play with. Nobody will change your mind and you will not change anyone else’s so enjoy that.

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Posted: 30 April 2012 09:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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traveler - 30 April 2012 08:57 AM
Bryan - 30 April 2012 08:10 AM
traveler - 29 April 2012 10:56 AM

Isn’t this the post that started the so-called quote? In fact, he said: “I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.” and here is the recording and excellent comment about it: LINK

We’re dealing with Moyers’ silliness in a different thread.

You’ve quoted the portion of West’s statement was lopped off in earlier media reports (“It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus”).  So what’s the problem with seeing his point?  There’s no legitimate comparison to Joe McCarthy.

I’ll just say “fine” to everything you say

Sounds like a technique borrowed from the “passive-aggressive” arsenal.

- the only point I was trying to make is that your post was the one in this thread that misquoted West and started the 0-81 counting mistake.

Nice twist of the truth, traveler.  I worked from the paraphrase of West presented in the opening post (that’s how the would-be obituary of Truth presented it and that’s what I quoted).  I was unaware at that time that West was flatly taken out of context.

The rest of the politics is for you to play with. Nobody will change your mind and you will not change anyone else’s so enjoy that.

That’s reassuring, given that the only “fact” marshaled against my argument is that I misquoted West.  I can see why you thought that, but if you re-examine the context it’s clear that I’m quoting (a small part of) the paraphrase of West from the OP.  Using that earlier phase of the argument is no excuse to ignore what is now clear about the context of West’s statement.

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Posted: 30 April 2012 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Bryan - 30 April 2012 09:53 AM

Nice twist of the truth, traveler.  I worked from the paraphrase of West presented in the opening post (that’s how the would-be obituary of Truth presented it and that’s what I quoted).  I was unaware at that time that West was flatly taken out of context.

I missed that! You are correct. My bad.

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Posted: 30 April 2012 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Ever heard of “rebranding”?

Seriously, why is it laughable?  There’s a socialist who caucuses with the Democrats (and is a member of the Progressive Congressional Caucus). I pointed out in a related thread that the political goals the Communist Party is willing to list looks like boilerplate Democratic Party platform material.

Laughable.  Really?

Yes, laughable. And where did you get the idea that a socialist platform is in any way related to the true ideals of the communist Party? And what do you mean by “willing to list”? Are they hiding their agenda? And since when is a progressive lobby “the” Democratic Party any more than the NRA is “the” Republican Party? Most of what I found on the Communist web site you listed speaks to throwing out the Constitution and withdrawing from Afganistan. None of these extreme positions fit any congressional member. Communism aims to violently destroy the existing system; definitely not a plank in the democratic party platform. Also, the reference to McCarthyism is in the way he vilified those members of Congress and those the entertainment industry. McCarthy knew that there were no Communists but he was caught up in his own lie. He used it mainly as a red herring to destroy his political opponents. This, I believe is what Bill Moyer menat by his comment on West. Seriously.


http://articles.usa-people-search.com/content-joseph-mccarthy-and-the-red-scare.aspx

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 30 April 2012 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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There you go again with those pesky facts again, Jack.  LOL

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Posted: 30 April 2012 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Oops, my bad! smile


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 30 April 2012 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Bryan - 30 April 2012 08:20 AM
Thevillageatheist - 30 April 2012 07:23 AM

And the idea that there are Communists in Congress is laughable.

Ever heard of “rebranding”?

Seriously, why is it laughable?  There’s a socialist who caucuses with the Democrats (and is a member of the Progressive Congressional Caucus). I pointed out in a related thread that the political goals the Communist Party is willing to list looks like boilerplate Democratic Party platform material.

Laughable.  Really?

It’s so ironic.  Bryan asks: “Ever hear of rebranding?” LOL

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Posted: 30 April 2012 12:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 30 April 2012 11:30 AM

Ever heard of “rebranding”?

Seriously, why is it laughable?  There’s a socialist who caucuses with the Democrats (and is a member of the Progressive Congressional Caucus). I pointed out in a related thread that the political goals the Communist Party is willing to list looks like boilerplate Democratic Party platform material.

Laughable.  Really?

Yes, laughable. And where did you get the idea that a socialist platform is in any way related to the true ideals of the communist Party?

American communist and international socialist websites post the same set of issues that the leftmost Democratic Party.  Apparently I’m supposed to assume the socialists and communists are liars but the progressives are telling the truth.

And what do you mean by “willing to list”? Are they hiding their agenda?

I assume that the goals posted on the socialist and communist websites are posted intentionally (“willing”).  I leave open the possibility (as an act of charity to those who will defend Democratic Party progressives) that the socialists and communists filtering their message to obtain wider appeal.

And since when is a progressive lobby “the” Democratic Party any more than the NRA is “the” Republican Party?

Red herring.  Nobody’s saying that.  Otherwise West could claim the number of “communists” equal to the total number of Democrats in Congress.

Most of what I found on the Communist web site you listed speaks to throwing out the Constitution and withdrawing from Afganistan.

Your survey was very limited.  The site is extremely antiwar.  It sounds like Dennis Kucinich.  One article talked about replacing the Constitution but without any description of the method.  Democrats today understand that there is no need to replace the Constitution when the Court can simply make it mean whatever is needed.  Though as I pointed out, some Democrats are willing to make a law to restrict the freedom of speech.

None of these extreme positions fit any congressional member.

Could you be ignoring a large number of positions on the site that fit many congressional members, especially Democrats?

1) Outlaw any and all U.S. involvement in wars of aggression and the use of force in settling conflicts between nations and peoples;

2) All U.S. Troops Home Now;

3) Cancel the Debts of all the countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America;

4) Pay Reparations Now for all the crimes of slavery and all crimes of the U.S. government, present and past; and

5) End all support for Israel and act to end the occupation of Palestine now, beginning with withdrawal to the 1967 borders.

6) Stop the Raids and Deportations. Legalization for all now.

7) Stop Funding War, Stop Paying the Rich, Increase Funding for Social Programs

Communism aims to violently destroy the existing system;

Does it?  Why does the Marxist/Leninist bunch refer to “democratric” change, then?  Give us a quotation.  Unless you’ll instead explain that they’re liars hiding their true agenda (while the progressives are, of course, utterly honest with theirs).

definitely not a plank in the democratic party platform. Also, the reference to McCarthyism is in the way he vilified those members of Congress and those the entertainment industry. McCarthy knew that there were no Communists but he was caught up in his own lie. He used it mainly as a red herring to destroy his political opponents. This, I believe is what Bill Moyer menat by his comment on West. Seriously.

Dude, McCarthy was right that there were communists in the U.S. government.  He just went overboard.

What West is saying is not what McCarthy was saying, and the comparisons are extraordinarily unfair.

http://articles.usa-people-search.com/content-joseph-mccarthy-and-the-red-scare.aspx

Cap’t Jack

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_agents_in_the_United_States

The legend surrounding McCarthy has apparently done great work in helping make people ignorant of the degree of sympathy progressives held for the Soviet Union.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/943108.Stalin_s_Apologist

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Posted: 30 April 2012 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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VYAZMA - 30 April 2012 11:37 AM

It’s so ironic.  Bryan asks: “Ever hear of rebranding?” LOL

The reliance on ridicule in the “Center For Inquiry” forum is astonishing.

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Posted: 30 April 2012 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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American communist and international socialist websites post the same set of issues that the leftmost Democratic Party.  Apparently I’m supposed to assume the socialists and communists are liars but the progressives are telling the truth

Here again you paint the Dem party with a wide brush. These views, extreme as they may sound do not reflect the views of the mainstream so it helps never to assume. So now the socialists aren’t Communists? They have two different agendas?

I assume that the goals posted on the socialist and communist websites are posted intentionally (“willing”).  I leave open the possibility (as an act of charity to those who will defend Democratic Party progressives) that the socialists and communists filtering their message to obtain wider appeal

How are those communists and socialists “filtering” their message? If you’re in agreement with their ideals you would not need to be clandestine. Let’‘s see now, public assistance for the poor, check, allowing for collective bargaining, check, regulating the stock market to avoid runaway speculation, public education, improved medical care (speaks for itself or I could spell it out if you like), all progressive ideals. Oh, and just for kicks, a christian SOCIALIST wrote the pledge of allegience. Once again, no true Communist philosophy in the Democratic party.

Red herring.  Nobody’s saying that.  Otherwise West could claim the number of “communists” equal to the total number of Democrats in Congress


I’m saying that and McCarthy never claimed that everyone in Congress was a Communist. See my citation; check the numbers.

Your survey was very limited.  The site is extremely antiwar.  It sounds like Dennis Kucinich.  One article talked about replacing the Constitution but without any description of the method.  Democrats today understand that there is no need to replace the Constitution when the Court can simply make it mean whatever is needed.  Though as I pointed out, some Democrats are willing to make a law to restrict the freedom of speech

And your point is…? We have the strongest and most funded military in the world with 900 bases. We no longer need to be the world’s policeman as Communism is essentially dead. I’m anti-war; does that make me a communist?  How does restricting the ability of multimillionaires to influence the government restricting freedom of speech? They can take their chances like the rest of us instead of hiding behind their corporations. The Kochs almost got away with it in Wisconsin. Almost.

Dude, McCarthy was right that there were communists in the U.S. government.  He just went overboard.

What West is saying is not what McCarthy was saying, and the comparisons are extraordinarily unfair


Dude, The Rosenbergs, Alger Hiss? c’mon. Where’s the Senators, where’s the Congressmen? You can read about the “communist” bugaboo in any high school text. David Halberstam dedicated a chapter in his book about the 50’s. This isn’t news man. And West’s idiotic comments are made for media hype and nothing more. He’s mouthing for his constitutents and painting Obama as a OOOOH Socialist!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_agents_in_the_United_States

The legend surrounding McCarthy has apparently done great work in helping make people ignorant of the degree of sympathy progressives held for the Soviet Union.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/943108.Stalin_s_Apologist

So? During the depression thousands of Americans joined the communist party. Hell even some of the industrialists went to Roosevelt begging him to nationalize industry to keep it from failing. Communism looked pretty good then. You’re attempting to defend the undefendable here. West made some idiotic statement in or out of context but it still smacks of McCarthyism.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 30 April 2012 11:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 30 April 2012 01:52 PM

American communist and international socialist websites post the same set of issues that the leftmost Democratic Party.  Apparently I’m supposed to assume the socialists and communists are liars but the progressives are telling the truth

Here again you paint the Dem party with a wide brush.

Hmmm?  What broad brush is that?  You object to “leftmost Democratic party”?  Broad brush?

These views, extreme as they may sound do not reflect the views of the mainstream so it helps never to assume.

Really.  So what did I assume?

So now the socialists aren’t Communists? They have two different agendas?

Socialism has always been similar to but distinct from communism. I don’t understand your question, as it appears to have a dubious premise at its core.

I’d like to see if you can engage just these three issues logically prior to addressing anything else you come up with.

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