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The Ghost of Joe McCarthy Slither around Allen West’s mind
Posted: 26 April 2012 10:08 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Here’s yet another entry for the “It’s Worse Than You Thought” file

Published on Thursday, April 26, 2012 by Common Dreams
by Bill Moyers and Michael Winship
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/04/26-6?print

{...}
A Republican and Tea Party favorite, he (Congressman Allen West of Florida) was asked at a local gathering how many of his fellow members of Congress are “card-carrying Marxists or International Socialists.”

He replied, “I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.”

{...}

Jeezus Keerist, is there even such a thing as International Socialistsconfused

“Card Carrying Marxist”
What the F is that?
        shock

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Posted: 28 April 2012 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 26 April 2012 10:08 PM

Here’s yet another entry for the “It’s Worse Than You Thought” file

Published on Thursday, April 26, 2012 by Common Dreams
by Bill Moyers and Michael Winship
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/04/26-6?print

{...}
A Republican and Tea Party favorite, he (Congressman Allen West of Florida) was asked at a local gathering how many of his fellow members of Congress are “card-carrying Marxists or International Socialists.”

He replied, “I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.”

{...}

Jeezus Keerist, is there even such a thing as International Socialistsconfused

“Card Carrying Marxist”
What the F is that?
        shock

Perhaps a new credit card company?  Engles Bank International.  Great Rates and No Speculation.

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Posted: 28 April 2012 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Allen West doubles down?

Really?

In context, it looks like West did not mean his comment literally, but rather as an indictment of the policies of the hard left in Washington.

Hey, we’ve got an idea—let’s carve out some exceptions to the freedom of speech.

Congress shall make a law restricting the freedom of speech where it perceives that unequal ability to exercise the freedom of speech results in effective communication of political ideas with which it disagrees or even crowding out of other political messages.

The progressives’ statement on discrimination is hilarious.  Eliminate all forms of discrimination based on race, religion, etc. (which of course means supporting affirmative action).  Seriously, how could that possibly make sense?

Comparing West to McCarthy is ridiculous.  The political tableau is far different today.  Except maybe in Cuba (and N. Korea) “communists” embrace the free market like never before.  But centralized power over markets is another story.  Maybe the left is comparing West to McCarthy (demonizing him) because it fears a comparison based on the discussion of growing central power over the economy?  Prove it isn’t the case.  Deal with West’s explanation seriously and without dismissing it as “doubling down.”

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Posted: 28 April 2012 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 26 April 2012 10:08 PM

Here’s yet another entry for the “It’s Worse Than You Thought” file

Published on Thursday, April 26, 2012 by Common Dreams
by Bill Moyers and Michael Winship
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/04/26-6?print

{...}
A Republican and Tea Party favorite, he (Congressman Allen West of Florida) was asked at a local gathering how many of his fellow members of Congress are “card-carrying Marxists or International Socialists.”

He replied, “I believe there’s about 78 to 81 members of the Democrat Party who are members of the Communist Party. It’s called the Congressional Progressive Caucus.”

{...}

Jeezus Keerist, is there even such a thing as International Socialistsconfused

Nothing at Wikipedia?  What a surprise.  I got what seems a significant Google hit (assuming it isn’t a parody site).  Hilariously, the organization’s goals seem pretty much like boilerplate Democratic Party platform material.  It’s got to be a joke, right?

Having trouble finding information on “Keep Left” ...
http://swp.org.uk/links/international-socialist-tendency

“Card Carrying Marxist”
What the F is that?
        shock

The “card-carrying” members of the KKK probably share that thought (“How idiotic!  Like we would actually carry cards identifying our affiliation with the KKK.”).

Heh.  The “U.S. Marxist-Leninist Organization” likewise could probably pass off its listed policy agenda as that of the Democratic Party.  What makes these Marxist-Leninists think Democrats will fall for this stuff?  Just because they express support for some of the same things doesn’t mean that true Democrats would give Marxist-Leninists the time of day.  Right?

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Posted: 28 April 2012 09:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Bryan - 28 April 2012 11:42 AM

Having trouble finding information on “Keep Left” ...
http://swp.org.uk/links/international-socialist-tendency
{...}
U.S. Marxist-Leninist Organization” likewise could probably pass off its listed policy agenda as that of the Democratic Party.  What makes these Marxist-Leninists think Democrats will fall for this stuff?  Just because they express support for some of the same things doesn’t mean that true Democrats would give Marxist-Leninists the time of day.  Right?

Some scary shit there surprised , I take it all back, where do I sign up for my own nuke to protect myself with?

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Posted: 28 April 2012 09:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 28 April 2012 09:50 PM
Bryan - 28 April 2012 11:42 AM

Having trouble finding information on “Keep Left” ...
http://swp.org.uk/links/international-socialist-tendency
{...}
U.S. Marxist-Leninist Organization” likewise could probably pass off its listed policy agenda as that of the Democratic Party.  What makes these Marxist-Leninists think Democrats will fall for this stuff?  Just because they express support for some of the same things doesn’t mean that true Democrats would give Marxist-Leninists the time of day.  Right?

Some scary shit there surprised , I take it all back, where do I sign up for my own nuke to protect myself with?

I assume you’re answering facetiously in order to continue making the comparison seem silly.  Seriously, don’t the communists and international socialists sound entirely wonderful?  Who wouldn’t welcome them into the Democratic Party based on what they post online?

Still waiting for somebody to address West’s point without demonizing him.

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Posted: 01 May 2012 12:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I wonder how many members of Congress are supportive of the same agenda as that of the John Birch Society.  http://www.jbs.org/action-projects

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Posted: 01 May 2012 12:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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TimB - 01 May 2012 12:30 PM

I wonder how many members of Congress are supportive of the same agenda as that of the John Birch Society.  http://www.jbs.org/action-projects

A little “tu quoque” never hurt anyone, I guess.

The principles of the John Birth Society extensively overlap those of conservatives.  See how easy it is?  Now let’s see a progressive make a parallel statement about the progressive/socialist connection.


Edit to add:
“How many card-carrying members of the John Birch Society are members of Congress?”

“About 66.


It’s called the ‘Tea Party Caucus.’”

McCarthyism.  Right?

[ Edited: 01 May 2012 12:53 PM by Bryan ]
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Posted: 01 May 2012 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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http://ezinearticles.com/?From-the-John-Birch-Society-to-the-Tea-Party&id=5212721

Didn’t the Tea Party’s supposed connection to the John Birch Society inspire a number of threads here at the CFI forums?

McCarthyism.  Right?

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Posted: 01 May 2012 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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A “little?!” tu quoque?  That’s a primary modus operandi for conservatives.

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Posted: 01 May 2012 01:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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TimB - 01 May 2012 01:00 PM

A “little?!” tu quoque?  That’s a primary modus operandi for conservatives.

lol—you’ve spared no shred of irony in your reply.

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Posted: 01 May 2012 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Indeed.  But only a “little” quid pro quo.

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Posted: 01 May 2012 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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TimB - 01 May 2012 01:06 PM

Indeed.  But only a “little” quid pro quo.

Didn’t see any progressive put any skin in the game yet.  It took me less than two seconds to admit the similarity between the JBS and a segment of conservatism.  We’re timing the progressives with a calendar instead of a stop watch.

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Posted: 01 May 2012 01:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Taking into consideration the possibility that TimB thinks I’ve engaged in a tu quoque argument (it’s a plausible explanation for some of what he’s written), please note that I am not explicitly or implicitly excusing anyone’s behavior on the basis that the other side does the same thing.  Nor have I used such techniques to create a distraction from the central issue.

The issue is whether West is reasonably compared to Joe McCarthy.  I say there’s no reasonable comparison, and explained (in accordance with West’s statements and explanations) what he was doing.  During that process I pointed to the historical sympathy between progressives and communists/socialists along with the stated (Internet) ideals of socialists and communists.  TimB introduced the John Birch Society in the form of a tu quoque (Republicans also share similar policy statements with “extremist” group).  I quickly concurred, pointing out that no progressive has admitted the left half of the parallel (if we don’t count TimB’s implicit admission).  I subsequently produced a dialog parallel to the West statement to help progressives see that West was not engaged in McCarthyism.  If West engaged in McCarthyism then liberals at the CFI forum are doing the same thing (form of reductio ad absurdum, leading to a conclusion the opponent will not wish to accept).

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Posted: 01 May 2012 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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I am not a member of congress.  And I did not actively assert that there are any number of congressmen who are members of the John Birch Society.  And no other progressive, that I know of has done so.  Allen West, however, did, apparently, assert his belief that the congressional progressive caucus members are members of the Communist Party. President Obama is routinely referred to as a Socialist. 

As to the strawman issue of how much West can be reasonably be compared to McCarthy, the answer is ... only to a degree. 

As to which side uses the “tu quoque” tactic, the most, the answer is…

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Posted: 01 May 2012 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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TimB - 01 May 2012 02:30 PM

I am not a member of congress.  And I did not actively assert that there are any number of congressmen who are members of the John Birch Society.

What’s the relevance?  Looks like special pleading.

And no other progressive, that I know of has done so.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz said Republicans want to “literally” bring back Jim Crow laws.  Close?  Don’t bother answering unless you’re explaining the relevance (I don’t think it’s relevant).

Allen West, however, did, apparently, assert his belief that the congressional progressive caucus members are members of the Communist Party.

You think he literally meant that members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus are members of the Communist Party.  Seriously?

President Obama is routinely referred to as a Socialist.

Yes, and Bush a “fascist” with the cute little nickname “Bushitler.”  Is any of it relevant?  What’s your point?  “They started it”?  “They’re the worse of the two”?

As to the strawman issue of how much West can be reasonably be compared to McCarthy, the answer is ... only to a degree.

Straw man?  You can’t be serious.  The article referenced in the OP specifically compares West to McCarthy and suggests he’s engaged in McCarthyism.

“78 to 81 Democrats… members of the Communist Party?” That’s the moment the memory hole opened up and a ghost slithered into the room. The specter stood there, watching the screen, a snickering smile on its stubbled face. Sure enough, it was the ghost of Senator Joseph McCarthy, the Wisconsin farm boy who grew up to become one of the most contemptible thugs in American politics.”

As to which side uses the “tu quoque” tactic, the most, the answer is…

... relevant because (and back to you) ...

[ Edited: 01 May 2012 09:14 PM by Bryan ]
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