Conservation of Energy ?
Posted: 13 June 2012 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  31
Joined  2011-06-17

If matter can neither be created nor destroyed and this law relates to a closed system and the universe is such a system can this imply that some state of energy is eternal? If not are there any models of an eternal universe and how well established are they? Any links, articles, and summaries would be great. What state of energy can be viewed as eternal? In light of this how can we define the ‘universe’ of 3 or 4 dimensions? I am trying to gather some insight into being able to use this law or these models to argue for such a state - if possible?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4520
Joined  2007-08-31

Don’t ask me to explain it exactly, as it is also a bit above my understanding. But many cosmologists suppose that the total energy content of the universe is zero. That sounds incredible, I know, but if one takes mass and light and everything in the universe, to be short everything we normally call energy is positive energy, then all this objects in the universe have a same amount of negative energy due to gravitation. If that sounds incredible… Read Lawrence Krauss, A universe from nothing.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  31
Joined  2011-06-17
GdB - 13 June 2012 12:05 PM

Don’t ask me to explain it exactly, as it is also a bit above my understanding. But many cosmologists suppose that the total energy content of the universe is zero. That sounds incredible, I know, but if one takes mass and light and everything in the universe, to be short everything we normally call energy is positive energy, then all this objects in the universe have a same amount of negative energy due to gravitation. If that sounds incredible… Read Lawrence Krauss, A universe from nothing.

I have been meaning to get that book - I think I will now that you reminded me. Regarding ‘zero’ I took that to mean balanced. I hate zero, infinities, and a radius of zero. I mean zero is nothingness so there cannot be anything contained. Right?, what the hell am I missing. I mean Zero Point Energy is absolute zero temp. but there is potential energy present. If energy is never created or destroyed but only transformed there has got be some eternal state of energy - Right? And if there is some eternal state of energy and entropy always increases then the Universe would have died an eternal heat death an eternity ago. Right? But obviously that aint right. We’re here. Is it possible that our universe of 4 dimensions is a buble upon this zero point energy or some other eternal energy state? I quess that brings up another question -how do these two laws relate and yet conserve energy?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 12:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4520
Joined  2007-08-31

I can only say: read the book. Maybe you can help me understand it then… You can start on youtube.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1397
Joined  2010-04-22

From what I understand, the universe will suffer a heat death - maybe 1000 trillion years from now. All energy is eternal - it only changes state. But heat death is not really about eternal energy so much as it is about the unevenness of energy distribution and how that distribution becomes more even in the universe over time.

Oh - and zero is different from null.

raspberry

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3052
Joined  2011-11-04

Eternity refers to the unending passage of time.  There was no time before energy/mattter and space existed.

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  31
Joined  2011-06-17
TimB - 13 June 2012 12:38 PM

Eternity refers to the unending passage of time.  There was no time before energy/mattter and space existed.

And if there is an energy state that is eternal then time itself is eternal if time it is operational at such a level - it may not be. This becomes defintional if we start to say that eternity is necessarily bound up in time itself - whatever time is? Eternity could well mean always existing - and time would have no necessary contraints on such a definition. But always existing is just another way of saying something is eternal.

[ Edited: 13 June 2012 12:53 PM by VeridicusMaximus ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  31
Joined  2011-06-17
TromboneAndrew - 13 June 2012 12:31 PM

From what I understand, the universe will suffer a heat death - maybe 1000 trillion years from now. All energy is eternal - it only changes state. But heat death is not really about eternal energy so much as it is about the unevenness of energy distribution and how that distribution becomes more even in the universe over time.

Oh - and zero is different from null.

raspberry

So then what we think of the ‘universe’ is a time-assymetric transformation of that energy and the eternal energy state the time-symetric state that undelies the 4 dimensional universe of matter/space/time proper where entropy applies. ??

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1397
Joined  2010-04-22
VeridicusMaximus - 13 June 2012 01:06 PM

So then what we think of the ‘universe’ is a time-assymetric transformation of that energy and the eternal energy state the time-symetric state that undelies the 4 dimensional universe of matter/space/time proper where entropy applies. ??

Um, huh?

Could you restate this, please?

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  31
Joined  2011-06-17
TromboneAndrew - 13 June 2012 03:10 PM
VeridicusMaximus - 13 June 2012 01:06 PM

So then what we think of the ‘universe’ is a time-assymetric transformation of that energy and the eternal energy state the time-symetric state that undelies the 4 dimensional universe of matter/space/time proper where entropy applies. ??

Um, huh?

Could you restate this, please?


Heh! Heh! Well, you said that the heat death was not about eternal energy so how can the two be in relation to one another if energy is eternal? Don’t they have to have some relation? Wouldn’t the energy have the potential to override a heat death. If not we would have already have had a heat death and never been able to have a universe with the assymetry that you mentioned.

If energy is eternal and always transforming how can a heat death actually happen (permanently) and if the heat death does not relate to these energy transformations how did the universe begin to become asymetric? Would’t a heat death presuppose energy being destroyed - i.e. not useful. If this is so would the erternal state of energy then be a heat death. If that is so then how are we here?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1397
Joined  2010-04-22
VeridicusMaximus - 13 June 2012 03:45 PM
TromboneAndrew - 13 June 2012 03:10 PM
VeridicusMaximus - 13 June 2012 01:06 PM

So then what we think of the ‘universe’ is a time-assymetric transformation of that energy and the eternal energy state the time-symetric state that undelies the 4 dimensional universe of matter/space/time proper where entropy applies. ??

Um, huh?

Could you restate this, please?


Heh! Heh! Well, you said that the heat death was not about eternal energy so how can the two be in relation to one another if energy is eternal? Don’t they have to have some relation? Wouldn’t the energy have the potential to override a heat death. If not we would have already have had a heat death and never been able to have a universe with the assymetry that you mentioned.

If energy is eternal and always transforming how can a heat death actually happen (permanently) and if the heat death does not relate to these energy transformations how did the universe begin to become asymetric? Would’t a heat death presuppose energy being destroyed - i.e. not useful. If this is so would the erternal state of energy then be a heat death. If that is so then how are we here?

Ah, that’s better. smile

Energy is eternal, but not eternally transforming. Heat death is not about the absence of heat, but about the unavailability of excess energy compared to the background level. Energy is only usable if it is in excess of the average level.

As to why the universe became asymetric, I have no idea. You’d have to ask someone who is more competent with the quantum physics aspects of the big bang than I.

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2012 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

Another theory is that there is a companion universe in a different set of dimensions which has the same total amount of energy and mass that we have, but just negative.  If one could open the “door” to that universe, the positive and negative aspects would cancel each other out and both universes would become empty of both energy and mass.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 June 2012 04:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6046
Joined  2009-02-26

As I understand it the zero state of the universe itself is a balance betweeen positive and negative energy which cancel each other out creating a zero state, but by not empty or void of energy.

I was thinking of Entropy a few days ago and what would happen when the universe loses all (or most) of its radiant energy.
 
As I understand it the reason why the universe is expanding is the universal radiant energy pressing outward, while the total universal gravity tries to hold it together.
I also believe that the universe will continue expanding until it becomes soo cold that all (or most) of the stars will die and no longer emit radiant energy. The universe will be a collection of dead cold stars, but even as they no longer emit radiant energy they do retain their mass and gravity.

If this true, then would it be possible that when the total gravity of the universe becomes greater than the total radiant energy, the universe will begin to collapse and shrink until all the mass is collected into a singularity, a black hole which continues to collapse unto itself, generating heat again until all matter is consumed by the heat (radiant energy) exploding into a giant BB again, creating a new universe?

[ Edited: 14 June 2012 04:21 AM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 June 2012 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4520
Joined  2007-08-31
Write4U - 14 June 2012 04:12 AM

If this true, then would it be possible that when the total gravity of the universe becomes greater than the total radiant energy, the universe will begin to collapse and shrink until all the mass is collected into a singularity, a black hole which continues to collapse unto itself, generating heat again until all matter is consumed by the heat (radiant energy) exploding into a giant BB again, creating a new universe?

No.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 June 2012 04:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6046
Joined  2009-02-26

OK, that clears it up… cheese

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 July 2012 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4276
Joined  2010-08-15
GdB - 14 June 2012 04:27 AM

No.

Write4U - 14 June 2012 04:39 AM

OK, that clears it up… cheese

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile