The Latest Church/State Violation
Posted: 19 June 2012 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]
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http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/19/police-to-hold-gun-turn-in-event-this-weekend/

The police partnering with at least 22 churches and one mosque violating both the First and Second Amendments in one fell swoop.

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Posted: 19 June 2012 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Rocinante - 19 June 2012 03:19 PM

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/19/police-to-hold-gun-turn-in-event-this-weekend/

The police partnering with at least 22 churches and one mosque violating both the First and Second Amendments in one fell swoop.

I don’t see how either is violated.

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Posted: 19 June 2012 06:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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ciceronianus - 19 June 2012 04:27 PM

I don’t see how either is violated.

Obviously there are degrees regarding how much violation is going on regarding each amendment.  Granted, the 2nd is being less violated, especially since the supreme Court slapped down Chicago’s flagrant violation of the Second Amendment.  But the fact that the police are involved makes it a de facto stance. 

But much more important, in this case, is the fact that the state, through their armed agency—the police—have partnered with churches and other religious institutions to further a goal desired by the state.  If this were any other instance of churches being involved with the state, the left would be screaming at the top of their lungs.  They are silent on this issue.  But it is still a violation of the First Amendment.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

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Posted: 20 June 2012 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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From the article:

CHICAGO (CBS) — Using the lure of $100 gift cards, the Chicago Police Department is encouraging people to get guns out of their homes and turn them in this Saturday, during the annual gun turn-in program.

Don’t forget the “No questions asked” part.

I don’t really care if Joe Average wants to sell some old rusty clunker…which is generally what these dog and pony shows get anyway…for a $100 gift card. That’s the owner’s business and not mine.

What offends is that this sort of event makes it possible for a criminal to get rid of a really damning piece of evidence (If the weapon they turn is was used in a crime or was stolen.) and get paid for it as well. No matter where anyone stands on the pro versus anti gun debate, I can’t see how a reasonable person couldn’t have a problem with that.

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Posted: 20 June 2012 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Rocinante - 19 June 2012 06:15 PM
ciceronianus - 19 June 2012 04:27 PM

I don’t see how either is violated.

Obviously there are degrees regarding how much violation is going on regarding each amendment.  Granted, the 2nd is being less violated, especially since the supreme Court slapped down Chicago’s flagrant violation of the Second Amendment.  But the fact that the police are involved makes it a de facto stance. 

But much more important, in this case, is the fact that the state, through their armed agency—the police—have partnered with churches and other religious institutions to further a goal desired by the state.  If this were any other instance of churches being involved with the state, the left would be screaming at the top of their lungs.  They are silent on this issue.  But it is still a violation of the First Amendment.

Well, I don’t know.  I’m not sure just what the extent of the “partnering” may be.  If the churches are just being used as locations at which the exchange is made, I don’t see any “excessive entaglement.”  As for the second amendment, in what fashion is the right to bear arms being infringed?  Nobody is being compelled to give up their beloved weapons, and they’re perfectly free to buy more and more.

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Posted: 20 June 2012 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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So I’m going to turn in a $1500 collector’s item for a lousy $100 dollar gift card? uh, no. That being stated the middle class gun owners won’t bite on this offer. That leaves the desperate and those who may have a hot firearm and know it. You turn in the gun, the police check the serial number or lack of which is suspicious to say the least, and catch felons using a few hundred dollar gift cards. Brilliant. But why churches? People trust them! Ahhhh, I get it. BTW this doesn’t violate the 2nd amendment. You aren’t compelled to yield your firearms. But the first amendment? Perhaps.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 20 June 2012 06:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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That leaves the desperate and those who may have a hot firearm and know it. You turn in the gun, the police check the serial number or lack of which is suspicious to say the least, and catch felons using a few hundred dollar gift cards. Brilliant.

Except that if the article is correct, that’s just not what’s happening. “No questions asked” was what was announced. It’s not just a stolen gun which gets turned in that way, but one used in a crime as well.

Personally, I don’t see this as a Constitutional issue but a practical one. I don’t have a problem with churches, mosques, synagoges, temples and what have you offering or providing a venue for a civic function. All such have a long tradition of doing that much. A local church nearby allows it’s fellowship hall to be used for polling on election day.

What I have a BIG problem with is the “No questions asked” thing.

if somebody is going to sell or exchange anything, a firearm or otherwise, it behooves the authorities at the very least to make sure that the person selling it is the legitimate owner.

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Posted: 20 June 2012 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I still know that had this been any political-style program supported by the right, the left would see it for the violation of the First Amendment that it is.  Compartmentalization with a heavy dose of cognitive dissonance is in progress here. 

The laughable below-market prices is only one of the problems.  Where’s the outrage over this “gouging”?  The bigger problem is that police are only serving notice to the gang members and other Chicago thugs (the non-elected kind) that they will now have even more unarmed victims to choose from.  So in a way, the police and their idiot partners in the churches will be aiding in an increase in crime.  Chicago has already had more deaths this year than all U.S. soldier deaths in Afghanistan.  Helluva job Rahmy.  It’s exactly what I would expect from Obama’s old stomping grounds.  I wonder if Eric Holder could get in on this gun program too! grin

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

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Posted: 21 June 2012 06:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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I’ve just been discussing that article about deaths in another forum.  The numbers are quite misleading.  Compare the population of Chicago with the number of American soldiers in Afghanistan.  It’s not surprising at all that more people died in Chicago.

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Posted: 21 June 2012 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Where’s the outrage over this “gouging”?

The drug addict looking for his next fix or the mobster or serial killer trying to get rid of a piece with a corpse which can be linked to it doesn’t care.

As to the honest joes, I suspect they’ll be happy to use the venue to dispose of some rusty antique which is too far gone even to have collectors value. (This constitutes the vast majority of what’s ACTUALLY turned in anyway.) The more practically minded will keep the good usable weapons handy in case s/he needs them.

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Posted: 21 June 2012 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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And it’s not “gouging” if people are volunteering to turn in the guns there.  They could keep them or sell them elsewhere if they think they’re worth more than $100.

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Posted: 21 June 2012 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Austin Harper - 21 June 2012 06:26 AM

I’ve just been discussing that article about deaths in another forum.  The numbers are quite misleading.  Compare the population of Chicago with the number of American soldiers in Afghanistan.

But Afghanistan is a freaking war zone!  That negates any disparity between civilian population in Chicago and military members in Afghanistan!  A war zone!  And the enemy in Afghanistan is purposely targeting the U.S. Military with, among other things, automatic weapons, mortars, roadside bombs, suicide bombers, etc!  Try as one might, this cannot be spun in a positive light for Chicago.   

Austin Harper - 21 June 2012 06:26 AM

It’s not surprising at all that more people died in Chicago.

I agree it is not surprising more people die in Chicago.  But it has nothing to do with Chicago’s population.  It’s almost entirely due to decades of failed policies (including it’s stance on guns and other leftist programs) that lead to an increase in crime.

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

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Posted: 21 June 2012 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Austin Harper - 21 June 2012 10:58 AM

And it’s not “gouging” if people are volunteering to turn in the guns there.  They could keep them or sell them elsewhere if they think they’re worth more than $100.

I agree it is not gouging.  That’s why I put quotes around the word.  It’s stupid.  But not gouging.  I used the word to make fun of all those who scream “gouging” at high gas prices or when prices go up for plywood, chainsaws, bottled water, etc. after hurricanes and natural disasters.  It’s supply and demand.  But this cash for guns stunt is neither gouging nor supply and demand.  It’s politics…mixed with religion in this case.   

I guess I liken the whole cash-for-guns scheme to when a police officer asks a person, “You don’t mind if I search you, do you?”  Technically, in most cases, the person can refuse to be searched.  But the police officer is an authority figure, has a gun, a badge, etc.  Thus many people feel obligated, pressured or think they must submit to a search.  And people in Chicago have lived for so long under a no-gun regime, and with the police running this racket, how many people will similarly feel they must turn in their guns if not for fear of violating some law, just out of plain fear that has been stoked by politicians who demagogue such issues?  So like I said, technically, it isn’t a violation of the Second Amendment (but I stand by my assertion that it is a violation of the First), it is still something the city has no business conducting int he first place.

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Posted: 21 June 2012 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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So like I said, technically, it isn’t a violation of the Second Amendment (but I stand by my assertion that it is a violation of the First), it is still something the city has no business conducting int he first place.

I have my own issues with the whole guns for cash turn in programs for the reasons I’ve explained but I don’t see it as a 2cnd Amendment issue since nobody is being forced by the state or the city to give them up. Participation is entirely voluntary. If it WAS forced, I’d have serious issues for for the same reasons you do.

As to the 1st Amendment, I just don’t see the problem. The Constitution states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….”

What this was intended to do was to
- protect religion from the depredations of government,
- to protect religion from the depredations of other religions, and
- protect government and non-religious people from the depredations of religion.

It doesn’t say that a particular group could not participate in a civic event or function.

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Posted: 22 June 2012 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Rocinante - 21 June 2012 06:48 PM
Austin Harper - 21 June 2012 06:26 AM

I’ve just been discussing that article about deaths in another forum.  The numbers are quite misleading.  Compare the population of Chicago with the number of American soldiers in Afghanistan.

But Afghanistan is a freaking war zone!  That negates any disparity between civilian population in Chicago and military members in Afghanistan!  A war zone!  And the enemy in Afghanistan is purposely targeting the U.S. Military with, among other things, automatic weapons, mortars, roadside bombs, suicide bombers, etc!  Try as one might, this cannot be spun in a positive light for Chicago.

I wouldn’t call it a spin at all.  It’s simple statistics.  What is the percentage of murders in Chicago compared to the percentage of casualties of US soldiers in Afghanistan?  That’s what we should be looking at.  Raw numbers can be deceiving.

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