Hello all! New PoI/cfi addict here…
Posted: 03 December 2006 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Hello. My name is Kyriako. Friends call me Charlie. A little about me:

I’m a deep thinker and have recently acquainted myself with the Point of Inquiry podcast and CFI. I am now addicted. Thank you.

Agnostic. Absolutely do not believe in a personal god. Can not buy into atheism [b:b458580c64]or[/b:b458580c64] religion. Both presume to be correct. Both are extremes. I presume that, while a creationist god is extremely improbable, the non-existence of any greater "thing" which directly or indirectly caused our universe’s existence seems improbable as well (though to a lesser extent). Maybe it’s because my *feeble* mind can not deal with the concept of[i:b458580c64] absolute nothingness[/i:b458580c64]. Infinity I can handle.

That’s my spiel on my current beliefs on religion. It’s a topic that has been consuming my thoughts of late.

I can’t wait to read through the forums…I have yet to do so. Speak to you all soon!

To close, a composite image I threw together:

[img:b458580c64]http://home.comcast.net/~cjeleftheriou/Sagan_Quote_on_Earth_small.jpg[/img:b458580c64]

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-Kyriako.
What intrigues me most is not the question whose answer I simply don’t know, but the question whose answer I can’t know.

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Posted: 03 December 2006 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Welcome, Kyriako—great quote from Sagan, that’s for sure! Enjoy the forum.

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Doug

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Posted: 03 December 2006 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Re: Hello all! New PoI/cfi addict here…

Welcome aboard.

[quote author=“elef3u”]
Agnostic. Absolutely do not believe in a personal god. Can not buy into athiesm or religion. Both presume to be correct. Both are extremes.

I’m afraid you’re mistaken as to what atheism is.  It is not the declaration there are no gods, which would make it the counterpoint of theistic religion, it is not believing there are gods because there’s no evidence of them.  If I claim that there are large, hairy three-legged creatures flying around me, would it be sensible to believe that’s true just because I say so, or would it be reasonable to assume I’m making things up unless I can show you one?


People who believe in gods have no evidence that they exist.  Gods have no effect on the world.  Is it reasonable to assume these supernatual entities exist and magically alter reality at their whim simply because so many people really think that they are there?  If you think that is not reasonable, you are atheist.


[quote author=“elef3u”]
I presume that, while a creationist god is extremely improbable, the non-existence of any greater “thing” which directly or indirectly caused our universe’s existence seems improbable as well (though to a lesser extent). Maybe it’s because my *feeble* mind can not deal with the concept of absolute nothingness. Infinity I can handle.

This is why people believe in gods, because they just can’t imagine an alternative.  In this case, what created the “greater ‘thing’” which was involved in the creation of the universe?  And what created the creator’s creator?

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Posted: 03 December 2006 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Re: Hello all! New PoI/cfi addict here…

[quote author=“L Raymond”]Welcome aboard.

I’m afraid you’re mistaken as to what atheism is.

I stand corrected. I presumed that all atheism claimed there was definitely no god or supreme entity. I can not claim that, because there’s as much proof for no god as there is for a god.

Agnosticism holds that the answer is unknowable. Which it currently is. Seems like the definitions of “atheist” and “agnostic” overlap a bit. Damn.

[quote author=“L Raymond”]This is why people believe in gods, because they just can’t imagine an alternative.  In this case, what created the “greater ‘thing’” which was involved in the creation of the universe?  And what created the creator’s creator?

Infinite space and time seems likely to me. I don’t believe in an original active “creator” or first whateveryouwanttocallit. And I can’t get my brain around the idea that once there was nothing, everywhere.

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-Kyriako.
What intrigues me most is not the question whose answer I simply don’t know, but the question whose answer I can’t know.

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Posted: 03 December 2006 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Welcome, K.

You said you could handle infinity more easily than you can conceive of complete nothingness.  Well, as you may recall, infinity times zero can, depending on the other conditions, equal a finite value.

If you consider nothingness for an infinite “time” there is some probability that somethingness could form somewhere along the line.  Well, enough game playing.  smile

I accept the term atheist because it’s so commonly used, however, more accurately, I’m a non-theist.  I don’t consider the concept of any value in our world.  I neither accept nor reject the existence of a god.  I just don’t bother with the idea.  And, you may want to read my introductory post for an anecdote about how I changed from an agnostic to an atheist.

Occam

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Posted: 03 December 2006 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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[quote author=“Occam”]...you may want to read my introductory post for an anecdote about how I changed from an agnostic to an atheist.
Occam

I’m on it.

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-Kyriako.
What intrigues me most is not the question whose answer I simply don’t know, but the question whose answer I can’t know.

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Posted: 03 December 2006 08:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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[quote author=“Occam”]I accept the term atheist because it’s so commonly used, however, more accurately, I’m a non-theist.

Non-theist is exactly what atheist means.  There is a lot of baggage that goes with the word, but it all comes from theists who want to tell atheists we have a whole philosohpy or world view based on not believing in god(s).

Most of us here are probably agnostic atheists, which means we don’t beleive there is any god, but they don’t know it for a fact.  There’s simply no evidence.  But then, most theists are agnostic theists, in that they believe there is one or more gods, but they don’t know it for a fact.

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Posted: 04 December 2006 12:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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[quote author=“L Raymond”]Most of us here are probably agnostic atheists, which means we don’t beleive there is any god, but they don’t know it for a fact.  There’s simply no evidence.  But then, most theists are agnostic theists, in that they believe there is one or more gods, but they don’t know it for a fact.

I would prefer just to say I’m an atheist. I “know for a fact” there isn’t a god in the same way I know that there isn’t a Buick orbiting Pluto.

Nevertheless, is it logically possible that there is, unbeknownst to us all, a Buick orbiting Pluto? Sure. It’s possible. But there’s no reason to believe such a claim, so until any better evidence comes in, I won’t believe it.

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Posted: 04 December 2006 02:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Re: Hello all! New PoI/cfi addict here…

[quote author=“elef3u”]Agnosticism holds that the answer is unknowable.

And yet you were comfortable saying, “Absolutely do not believe in a personal god.”  So it seems the answer is knowable after all.  smile

I’m just yanking your chain.  The difference between an agnostic and an atheist is just in the way you define your terms.  Sometimes I think we should just make up a completely new word, but that never seems to work!  wink

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Posted: 04 December 2006 05:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Re: Hello all! New PoI/cfi addict here…

[quote author=“advocatus”]Sometimes I think we should just make up a completely new word, but that never seems to work!  wink

Let’s see. We can work off of some Greek terms.

αμφίβολος / amfivolos / “doubtful”
+ θεός / theos / “god”
= Amfitheist? Amfivolotheist?

OR

αβέβαιος / aveveos / “uncertain”
= Aveveotheist?

OR

ανακριτής / anakritis / “questioner”
= Anakritheist?

Or there’s always the simple alternative: Theoskeptic.

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-Kyriako.
What intrigues me most is not the question whose answer I simply don’t know, but the question whose answer I can’t know.

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Posted: 04 December 2006 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Word Play

I Love the creative word-play.  Are you a linguist by chance?  Or do you just love Greek?  Either way, rock on!

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Posted: 04 December 2006 06:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Re: Word Play

[quote author=“jemsupercharge”]I Love the creative word-play.  Are you a linguist by chance?  Or do you just love Greek?  Either way, rock on!

Thank you! It’s fun. I’m 2nd generation Greek-American and am fairly fluent in the language. Add a little creativity and voila!

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-Kyriako.
What intrigues me most is not the question whose answer I simply don’t know, but the question whose answer I can’t know.

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Posted: 04 December 2006 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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[quote author=“Occam”]Welcome, K.

You said you could handle infinity more easily than you can conceive of complete nothingness.  Well, as you may recall, infinity times zero can, depending on the other conditions, equal a finite value.

If you consider nothingness for an infinite “time” there is some probability that somethingness could form somewhere along the line.  Well, enough game playing.  smile

Good stuff. To me, a living entity in a universe full of stuff, complete and utter nothingness is a difficult concept to consider a possibility.

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-Kyriako.
What intrigues me most is not the question whose answer I simply don’t know, but the question whose answer I can’t know.

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Posted: 06 December 2006 02:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Well, I don’t like describing myself as “doubtful” or “uncertain” either.  That’s why I don’t use “agnostic”.  I tried introducing myself to Christians as an agnostic once, and their response was pretty much, “By your own admission, you don’t know, so we don’t have to listen to any of your puny objections.  On the other hand, we DO KNOW, so why don’t you just shut up and accept the Truth that we’re giving you?”

I use “atheist” because, having thought about it for a long time, I’m pretty certain that God probably doesn’t exist, but that’s not quite the same thing as saying I’m 100% sure he can’t possibly exist.

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Posted: 06 December 2006 03:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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[quote author=“advocatus”]I use “atheist” because, having thought about it for a long time, I’m pretty certain that God probably doesn’t exist, but that’s not quite the same thing as saying I’m 100% sure he can’t possibly exist.

Right. Even Richard Dawkins says he isn’t 100% sure.

The other question that comes up in this context is what counts as “god”. Seems to me that it is sufficient to be considered atheist by any standard definition if you don’t believe in a personal god who is all knowing, all powerful and perfectly good.

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Posted: 14 December 2006 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Admitting that you don’t know everything is the first step in making yourself infinitely wiser.  Welcome to CFI.

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Fighting the evil belief that there is a god(s).

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