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Posted: 04 April 2013 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 22 October 2012 01:54 PM
Jeciron - 30 September 2012 05:38 AM

It will not be easy, however, a bad natural disaster, or a deep economic downturn, and we could find ourselves ruled by whackjobs.  I am hopeful, but just barely, that we will make it.

(In the case of the burqa, I refuse to accept the idea that men cannot change their mindset and come to see women as fully equivalent, fully equal members of society and respect the woman’s right to express herself.  But, in the Islamic logic, (and this is demeaning to everyone), men, cannot treat women as fully human unless the fact that women are fully human is hidden from the men.  So, cover up, babe, it’s for your own good.  Just think how respectful everyone will be of women when we men can keep them in cages.) 

You seem to partially misunderstand what I said. Women DO have the right to express themselves just with a limit. It would be imprisoning if a women only had to wear one type of clothing

Can they express themselves while driving a car in Saudi Arabia? Can they express themselves while wearing t-shirts and shorts in public? 

You speak of limits, but who is designing those limits? Why are the limits placed only on women?  As long as there are limits on women that are not imposed on men, the women are not free. Place all those limits on men and see what happens.  Force them to wear burqas and see what happens. (And I wouldn’t say they can wear only one type of clothing, let them wear anything they like as long as they cover themselves from head to foot.) Keep them from walking out of the house without a female chaperone. And ban them from driving. Make no law that applies to women that doesn’t apply to men in exactly the same way.  It would still be a horrible society but they would have something approaching equality.

.....

 

 

 

Also I never said that only burqa should be promoted.
On the contrary, Islam does allow women to express themselves. You can refer back to the initial post to see them. To give you a better idea,  see the picture at this link.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2010/08/27/the-muslim-mosque-new-york-city-and-free

 

I should also clarify that I believe men should have some limits to. As the Quran states:

[024:030]  And ask the believing men to (be modest and) lower their gaze and maintain their chastity. That is righteous and better. Allah is quite familiar with what they do.

Psychology expert Dr. Heflick also supports this:

research shows that men and women view sexualized images (of both men and women) as lacking “mind,” which is basically a denial of thoughts and emotions. In this work, people even had less concern for the sexualized people’s pain, compared to when they were fully dressed.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201008/sexualized-women-are-seen-objects-studies-find

 


You just seem to disagree with me as to what the limits should be., especially when we take gender into consideration. For example, in most cultures it is considered rude to be nude in public. I think we can both agree on this.  But beyond that it is difficult to agree.

At this point, it comes down to matter as to who we should listen to. Some may agree with your, while others will agree with mine. Those who agree with you will probably include most people in the U.S..
Those who agree with me include

 

1.      Renowned American   Feminist Camille Paglia:

Feminism keeps saying the sexes are the same. It keeps telling women they can do anything, go anywhere, say anything, wear anything. No, they can’t. Women will always be in sexual danger… I call it common sense. 

    Sex, Art, and American Culture: Essays
    page 50-51

 


2.    Psychology expert Dr. Heflick

University of Padova researchers….found that when women were dressed sexually (compared to when they weren’t), people implicitly associated them more with animals….

research has found that merely focusing on a woman’s appearance (fully dressed) is enough for people (men and women) to dehumanize a woman.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201008/sexualized-women-are-seen-objects-studies-find

 

3.  Martha Nussbaum


But the more glaring flaw in the argument [that burqa is oppressive]is that society is suffused with symbols of male supremacy that treat women as objects.  Sex magazines, nude photos, tight jeans — all of these products, arguably, treat women as objects, as do so many aspects of our media culture.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/veiled-threats/

 


I am interested to hear your evidence in response to what I have to say.


Gotta go for now smile

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Posted: 05 April 2013 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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All the sociological arguments for concealing clothing, be it women’s or men’s apparel are interesting and provide useful insight into choices a person might make in clothing themselves when they wish to be perceived either as a sexual being or a less so.  The point is, the individual has the right to choose.  Adherents to religions, or other faith structures, i.e. some political systems,  regularly make the spurious conclusion that since they “know the truth”, they have some right or worse, obligation, to impose that truth on other human beings.  The problem with the argument is not in the idea that clothing affects the way people see others, but that there is some supernatural power which decrees how people should dress, and by extension, those people who claim to have superior access to this power have some right to enforce these dictates.

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Posted: 05 April 2013 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Jeciron - 05 April 2013 05:46 AM

All the sociological arguments for concealing clothing, be it women’s or men’s apparel are interesting and provide useful insight into choices a person might make in clothing themselves when they wish to be perceived either as a sexual being or a less so.  The point is, the individual has the right to choose.  Adherents to religions, or other faith structures, i.e. some political systems,  regularly make the spurious conclusion that since they “know the truth”, they have some right or worse, obligation, to impose that truth on other human beings.  The problem with the argument is not in the idea that clothing affects the way people see others, but that there is some supernatural power which decrees how people should dress, and by extension, those people who claim to have superior access to this power have some right to enforce these dictates.

There is another aspect.  In Muslim countries they say they are “protecting” the women from the excesses of the men who apparently can’t see a woman uncovered or free in any way without going into a sexual frenzy.  So they decide to restrict the potential victims of men’s lack of control instead of restricting the potential perpetrators of such attacks.  Typical patriarchal thinking.  They should lock up the men who can’t control over their sexuality, not the women.  But it’s so much easier to lock up the women and deprive them of their human rights for the sake of male superiority. All religions use the excuse of supernatural power to control people.

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Posted: 06 April 2013 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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According to Westerners working in places like Saudi Arabia, its pretty common for Muslim women to flash Western males, showing them that they’re wearing nothing under their burqa, and that when Saudi women are traveling to places like the West, if there’s no old biddie chaperone along with them, as soon as the plane leaving Saudi gets in the air, the Saudi women are racing to the bathrooms to change into revealing Western clothes.

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Posted: 06 April 2013 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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There are chemicals which will turn off the male’s ability to produce testosterone.  While the ones I’ve read about require injection, I feel there are some that could be put in one’s food.  I’m surprised that Muslim women don’t smuggle bits of that into their abusive husband’s and other relative’s meals.  smile

Occam

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Posted: 19 April 2013 05:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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]Bits and pieces sliced and diced out of context to form some sort of pretext.

If this is true sir, then please let me know the context. I am willing to take back everything I said.

You have a real fear of women ad equals and you appear to be horrified at the prospect that women have the same right to embrace and enjoy their sexuality as any man.

.

Men are told to control themselves.  Any man who yearns for a woman must marry her.  It is allowed to get to know such a woman, but men shouldn’t be flirting or dating without supervision.  (Psychologytoday has a good article explaining why for anybody interested in knowing http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200903/what-has-extramarital-sex-got-do-violent-crime).

And no, what I am horrified is how the surveys I read (previously posted) showed that many British Lad magazines expressed statements similar to rapists. 
If I am anti feminine for thinking that our society is too sexualized, then so are the psychologists who drew the conclusions to that study.


Also, I dont think anyone is in a position to be saying that I am woman-hater considering that I showed many feminists who agree with me (some agreeing more than others)

I am amazed how anyone can then refer to such a person’s view as misogynist.

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Posted: 19 April 2013 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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There is another aspect.  In Muslim countries they say they are “protecting” the women from the excesses of the men who apparently can’t see a woman uncovered or free in any way without going into a sexual frenzy. 

I dont understand what you mean by “free in any way”, Lois.
I dont know about other major world faiths, but in Islam women do have numerous rights. 
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/society-and-family/status-of-women/166935-house-arrest-for-muslim-women.html



“If U.S. and European historians feel a need to reconstruct women’s history because women are invisible in the traditional sources, Islamic scholars are faced with a plethora of source material that has only begun to be studied.  In reading the biographies of thousands of Muslim women scholars, one is amazed at the evidence that contradicts the view of Muslim women as marginal, secluded, and restricted.’

Women in the Islamic Biographical Collections: From Ibn Sa`d to Who’s who
By Ruth Roded
page viii

Typical patriarchal thinking.  They should lock up the men who can’t control over their sexuality, not the women.  But it’s so much easier to lock up the women and deprive them of their human rights for the sake of male superiority.

I dont think, sir, you are full aware of limitations men have regarding their sexuality.
They are Islamically not allowed to flirt with women, nor date the without supervision. Precisely because many “men are jerks”. (see http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200903/what-has-extramarital-sex-got-do-violent-crime)

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Posted: 19 April 2013 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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I am thankful for everyone who read my post and commented (as opposed to the some 200++ members who have 0 posts anywhere. But thats their choice)
I have been wondering however, how many have actually read any works on human psychology, sexuality, feminism, or moral philosophy?

If someone has not studied about these things, then how can anyone claim to know about the topic at hand?  To rely
only on one’s own experience is called anecdotal evidence which is extremely weak.  Knowledge comes with studying.

With all due respect to everyone, I have not seen anyone citing any evidence to support their claims. 
I am doing my best to cite secular sources (most of the time) to support my position.

Throughout my life, I have constantly had to bear with people who talked about issues without ever providing any evidence/studying.
Regardless of whether they are Muslim, Chrstian, athiest, and regardless of whether the topic is science, religion. or politics.
Everyone talks without any familiarity with the subject, thinking that their experience (combined with some random news clips) is enough.

Thanks again for reading and apologies if I insulted anyone.

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Posted: 19 April 2013 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 19 April 2013 05:26 PM

]Bits and pieces sliced and diced out of context to form some sort of pretext.

If this is true sir, then please let me know the context. I am willing to take back everything I said.

You have a real fear of women ad equals and you appear to be horrified at the prospect that women have the same right to embrace and enjoy their sexuality as any man.

.

Men are told to control themselves.  Any man who yearns for a woman must marry her.  It is allowed to get to know such a woman, but men shouldn’t be flirting or dating without supervision.  (Psychologytoday has a good article explaining why for anybody interested in knowing http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200903/what-has-extramarital-sex-got-do-violent-crime).

And no, what I am horrified is how the surveys I read (previously posted) showed that many British Lad magazines expressed statements similar to rapists. 
If I am anti feminine for thinking that our society is too sexualized, then so are the psychologists who drew the conclusions to that study.


Also, I dont think anyone is in a position to be saying that I am woman-hater considering that I showed many feminists who agree with me (some agreeing more than others)

I am amazed how anyone can then refer to such a person’s view as misogynist.

If they agre with you they at not feminists.

Out society may be too sexualized In some people’s view, but at least it is not sexualized by government decree, which, in fact, is the case in Musliam countries where women have few rights can be forced to marry a man she does not want and can be raped at will.  What could be more erotic to a Muslim man than a woman who is forced to be covered and has no rights?  She might as well be tied to a bed and be be raped daily by government decree. There are evidently a lot of men in Muslim countries who get extremely aroused by the thought of women who can be forced to br raped and cannot get away. Why else would the primitive rules they have devised for women continue to this day?

 

 

Lois

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Posted: 19 April 2013 07:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 19 April 2013 05:54 PM

There is another aspect.  In Muslim countries they say they are “protecting” the women from the excesses of the men who apparently can’t see a woman uncovered or free in any way without going into a sexual frenzy. 

I dont understand what you mean by “free in any way”, Lois.
I dont know about other major world faiths, but in Islam women do have numerous rights. 
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/society-and-family/status-of-women/166935-house-arrest-for-muslim-women.html



“If U.S. and European historians feel a need to reconstruct women’s history because women are invisible in the traditional sources, Islamic scholars are faced with a plethora of source material that has only begun to be studied.  In reading the biographies of thousands of Muslim women scholars, one is amazed at the evidence that contradicts the view of Muslim women as marginal, secluded, and restricted.’

Women in the Islamic Biographical Collections: From Ibn Sa`d to Who’s who
By Ruth Roded
page viii

Typical patriarchal thinking.  They should lock up the men who can’t control over their sexuality, not the women.  But it’s so much easier to lock up the women and deprive them of their human rights for the sake of male superiority.

I dont think, sir, you are full aware of limitations men have regarding their sexuality.
They are Islamically not allowed to flirt with women, nor date the without supervision. Precisely because many “men are jerks”. (see http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200903/what-has-extramarital-sex-got-do-violent-crime)

Ha ha,  that’s very funny. Tell me another one. You’re a laugh a minute.

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Posted: 20 April 2013 04:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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>>Men are told to control themselves.  Any man who yearns for a woman must marry her. <<

NOT your call to make.

>>It is allowed to get to know such a woman, but men shouldn’t be flirting or dating without supervision.<<

Also NOT your call to make. Get your nose out of people’s bedrooms and people’s sex lives. What responsible consenting adults do is absolutely NONE of your damned business.

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Posted: 22 April 2013 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 19 April 2013 06:43 PM

I am thankful for everyone who read my post and commented (as opposed to the some 200++ members who have 0 posts anywhere. But thats their choice)
I have been wondering however, how many have actually read any works on human psychology, sexuality, feminism, or moral philosophy?

If someone has not studied about these things, then how can anyone claim to know about the topic at hand?  To rely
only on one’s own experience is called anecdotal evidence which is extremely weak.  Knowledge comes with studying.

With all due respect to everyone, I have not seen anyone citing any evidence to support their claims. 
I am doing my best to cite secular sources (most of the time) to support my position.

Throughout my life, I have constantly had to bear with people who talked about issues without ever providing any evidence/studying.
Regardless of whether they are Muslim, Chrstian, athiest, and regardless of whether the topic is science, religion. or politics.
Everyone talks without any familiarity with the subject, thinking that their experience (combined with some random news clips) is enough.

Thanks again for reading and apologies if I insulted anyone.

Welcome to the real world, most peoples “knowledge” comes from their social millu and their morals frm the prevailing memes of the culture they exisit in.

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Posted: 22 April 2013 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 19 April 2013 06:43 PM

I am thankful for everyone who read my post and commented (as opposed to the some 200++ members who have 0 posts anywhere. But thats their choice)
I have been wondering however, how many have actually read any works on human psychology, sexuality, feminism, or moral philosophy?

[/quote/

Lois: Many of us have read such works and some of us have majored in one of thise subjects at university. It makes me wonder if you have ever read any of those works and taken in what they were saying.  Anyone who can read psychology, sexuality, feminism or moral philosophy and still support the Islamic treatment of women could not possibly have understood what he was reading.  Everything in those subject areas would show how harmful it is to women and society for half the population to be in control of the other half for no reason but that men have decided that half the population is not capable of independent thought and control over their own minds and bodies simply because they are female and who thinks that keeping women imprisoned, covered up and dependent is the humane or moral thing to do or that it us not harmful to them psychologically. there isnt a respected book on psychology in the world that would support such a position. 

Abdul: If someone has not studied about these things, then how can anyone claim to know about the topic at hand?  To rely
only on one’s own experience is called anecdotal evidence which is extremely weak.  Knowledge comes with studying.

Lois.: Yes and you have shown here that you have not studied thesevsubjects andv and taken it in,  if you had you would never support Islamic treatment of women. 

 

Abdul: With all due respect to everyone, I have not seen anyone citing any evidence to support their claims. 
I am doing my best to cite secular sources (most of the time) to support my position.

Throughout my life, I have constantly had to bear with people who talked about issues without ever providing any evidence/studying.
Regardless of whether they are Muslim, Chrstian, athiest, and regardless of whether the topic is science, religion. or politics.
Everyone talks without any familiarity with the subject, thinking that their experience (combined with some random news clips) is enough.

Lois: Apparently tha is what you are doing yourself.  You obviously know nothing about human psychology if you take the positions you take.

Abdul :Thanks again for reading and apologies if I insulted anyone.

Lois: You didnt insult anyone here but you have managed to insult yourself by claiming to understand psychology and then supporting a system that denies everything psychology stands for. You obviously don’t have a clue as to what psychology says about human beings’ need for independence and autonomy when it applies to women. You have shown that your brain has been fried by religious indoctrination to he point that you are incapable of thinking rationally.

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Posted: 10 May 2013 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Lois: Many of us have read such works and some of us have majored in one of thise subjects at university. It makes me wonder if you have ever read any of those works and taken in what they were saying.

I have read the profiles of everyone in this discussion and most people (including myself) dont have their qualifications posted.

Anyone who can read psychology, sexuality, feminism or moral philosophy and still support the Islamic treatment of women could not possibly have understood what he was reading.

I am more than willing to consider your point of view if you cite me a reliable reference. As I posted before, noone has done so thus far.

Out society may be too sexualized In some people’s view, but at least it is not sexualized by government decree, which, in fact, is the case in Musliam countries where women have few rights can be forced to marry a man she does not want and can be raped at will.  What could be more erotic to a Muslim man than a woman who is forced to be covered and has no rights? 
...
men have decided that half the population is not capable of independent thought and control over their own minds and bodies simply because they are female and who thinks that keeping women imprisoned, covered up and dependent is the humane or moral thing to do or that it us not harmful to them psychologically


Brother Lois, have you studied Islamic law? Give me one credible source from authoritive Muslim scholarship which states that women have no rights.


Furthermore, Shari`ah Law unambiguously forbids the forcing or coercing of women into a marriage they do not want. Too often in the Arab world, girls are forced to marry whom their parents —usually the father— deem appropriate. This is contrary to Shari`ah Law, when Islam swept through the Arabian Peninsula, it liberated women by declaring that a woman’s consent has to be obtained for marriage

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/ethics-and-values/human-rights/166208-does-shariah-law-support-inequality.html


Since Islam’s earliest days, women took a prominent part in the preservation and cultivation of Hadith [prophetic sayings], and this function continued down the centuries. At every period in Muslim history, there lived numerous eminent women scholars of Hadith, treated by their brethren with reverence and respect. Entries on very large numbers of them are to be found in the biographical dictionaries. After the Prophet’s death, many women Companions, particularly his wives, were looked upon as vital custodians of knowledge.
During the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), many women were not only the instance for the evolution of many hadiths, but were also their transmitters to their sisters and brothers in faith. After the Prophet’s death, many women Companions, particularly his wives, were looked upon as vital custodians of knowledge, and were approached for instruction by the other Companions, to whom they readily dispensed the rich store which they had gathered in the Prophet’s company.

http://www.onislam.net/english/shariah/hadith/hadith-scholars/447687-women-scholars-of-hadith-part-1-.html

 

I gave other references (post 37) before to which you replied.

Ha ha,  that’s very funny. Tell me another one. You’re a laugh a minute.

I respect your right to disagree with me sir, but I am surprised that you give such a response when you said

It makes me wonder if you have ever read any of those works and taken in what they were saying


Moving on…

Why else would the primitive rules they have devised for women continue to this day?

In those Muslims countries these horried crimes happen, the CIA have pointed out

There are more than 50 predominantly Muslim countries in the world, and, while most have elements of Shariah in their civil and family law, only two have it as their criminal codes….  The countries that do not have Shariah as their criminal codes have modeled their laws on European and American models, some borrowing from Roman law and others from British common law.

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

If I were to apply the same standards that many members on this forum have done with shariah, then it turns out that the secular European and American models are horrid because of crimes that happen in countries where they are implemented.  (I, however, do not think we should jump to such a hasty conclusion).

 

To all the respected members who have replied, this is the 2nd or 3rd time I am asking for an academic reference for you opinions. So if you plan on replying, please have a source to cite. I am looking forward to it
Thanks for the comments!

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Posted: 10 May 2013 10:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 10 May 2013 09:04 PM

Lois: Many of us have read such works and some of us have majored in one of thise subjects at university. It makes me wonder if you have ever read any of those works and taken in what they were saying.

I have read the profiles of everyone in this discussion and most people (including myself) dont have their qualifications posted.

Anyone who can read psychology, sexuality, feminism or moral philosophy and still support the Islamic treatment of women could not possibly have understood what he was reading.

I am more than willing to consider your point of view if you cite me a reliable reference. As I posted before, noone has done so thus far.

Out society may be too sexualized In some people’s view, but at least it is not sexualized by government decree, which, in fact, is the case in Musliam countries where women have few rights can be forced to marry a man she does not want and can be raped at will.  What could be more erotic to a Muslim man than a woman who is forced to be covered and has no rights? 
...
men have decided that half the population is not capable of independent thought and control over their own minds and bodies simply because they are female and who thinks that keeping women imprisoned, covered up and dependent is the humane or moral thing to do or that it us not harmful to them psychologically


Brother Lois, have you studied Islamic law? Give me one credible source from authoritive Muslim scholarship which states that women have no rights.


Furthermore, Shari`ah Law unambiguously forbids the forcing or coercing of women into a marriage they do not want. Too often in the Arab world, girls are forced to marry whom their parents —usually the father— deem appropriate. This is contrary to Shari`ah Law, when Islam swept through the Arabian Peninsula, it liberated women by declaring that a woman’s consent has to be obtained for marriage

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/ethics-and-values/human-rights/166208-does-shariah-law-support-inequality.html


Since Islam’s earliest days, women took a prominent part in the preservation and cultivation of Hadith [prophetic sayings], and this function continued down the centuries. At every period in Muslim history, there lived numerous eminent women scholars of Hadith, treated by their brethren with reverence and respect. Entries on very large numbers of them are to be found in the biographical dictionaries. After the Prophet’s death, many women Companions, particularly his wives, were looked upon as vital custodians of knowledge.
During the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), many women were not only the instance for the evolution of many hadiths, but were also their transmitters to their sisters and brothers in faith. After the Prophet’s death, many women Companions, particularly his wives, were looked upon as vital custodians of knowledge, and were approached for instruction by the other Companions, to whom they readily dispensed the rich store which they had gathered in the Prophet’s company.

http://www.onislam.net/english/shariah/hadith/hadith-scholars/447687-women-scholars-of-hadith-part-1-.html

 

I gave other references (post 37) before to which you replied.

Ha ha,  that’s very funny. Tell me another one. You’re a laugh a minute.

I respect your right to disagree with me sir, but I am surprised that you give such a response when you said

It makes me wonder if you have ever read any of those works and taken in what they were saying


Moving on…

Why else would the primitive rules they have devised for women continue to this day?

In those Muslims countries these horried crimes happen, the CIA have pointed out

There are more than 50 predominantly Muslim countries in the world, and, while most have elements of Shariah in their civil and family law, only two have it as their criminal codes….  The countries that do not have Shariah as their criminal codes have modeled their laws on European and American models, some borrowing from Roman law and others from British common law.

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

If I were to apply the same standards that many members on this forum have done with shariah, then it turns out that the secular European and American models are horrid because of crimes that happen in countries where they are implemented.  (I, however, do not think we should jump to such a hasty conclusion).

 

To all the respected members who have replied, this is the 2nd or 3rd time I am asking for an academic reference for you opinions. So if you plan on replying, please have a source to cite. I am looking forward to it
Thanks for the comments!

Not being Islamist, i have no access to primary sources, but i would appreciate it if you would read this article and explain what is incorrect in it and how Islamic law differs from it. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Not being Islamist, i have no access to primary sources, but i would appreciate it if you would read these articles and explain what is incorrect in them and how Islamic law differs from it.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

http://islam.uga.edu/Islamwomen.html

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