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Atheism is patriotic
Posted: 05 July 2012 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Free in Kentucky
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Posted: 05 July 2012 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Nice!  Much better than that stupid billboard.

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Posted: 05 July 2012 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Very nice.

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Posted: 05 July 2012 08:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Patriotism is bad.

Atheism shouldn’t be aligned with it IMO.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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mid atlantic - 05 July 2012 08:57 PM

Patriotism is bad.

Atheism shouldn’t be aligned with it IMO.

I tend to agree with that.  It smacks of another exclusive club. “My country, right or wrong” and “we are exceptional”

It all reminds me of George Carlin’s little skit about child worship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6wOt2iXdc4&feature=related

But I can understand the PR in that. Atheists are already branded as evil, so this is to remind people that atheists also serve their country. Can’t very well tell an atheist soldier that he is not patriotic or does not love his country. Well, I guess some still say that, but those who do must be very patriotic and special and god fearing.

OTOH we have a theist patriot running for president who has millions stashed away in tax free off-shore accounts. Very patriotic.

[ Edited: 06 July 2012 03:52 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 06 July 2012 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I think it depends on what one means by “patriot”. To me, a patriot is not one who believes in the exceptionalism of his own country above others or that he should support everything his leaders do, right or wrong. Nor is it the emotional, jingoistic nonsense we hear a lot of in America these days. To me, a patriot is one who values community interest over self interest. A patriot will sacrifice personal comfort, wealth, health, and even life for the good of the many. A patriot will work to see policies and laws enacted that benefit the most people, even if they don’t necessarily benefit him directly. A patriot will stand and defend the rights of others to do things that he personally dislikes for a higher principal. Without patriots, there would be no United States of America or Canada as we know them today. For that, I am thankful.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Can somewhat agree FIK.

As an atheist, or freethinker, I’m aware that your place of birth is just a product of chance.  That cancels out any feeling of exceptionalism.

Kind of like what Carlin says in the clips W4U linked; it’s fine to be happy with where you live, or feel lucky to be in a certain place, but loving your country at the expense of everything else shows a lack of sophistication IMO.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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FreeInKy - 06 July 2012 05:49 AM

I think it depends on what one means by “patriot”. To me, a patriot is not one who believes in the exceptionalism of his own country above others or that he should support everything his leaders do, right or wrong. Nor is it the emotional, jingoistic nonsense we hear a lot of in America these days. To me, a patriot is one who values community interest over self interest. A patriot will sacrifice personal comfort, wealth, health, and even life for the good of the many. A patriot will work to see policies and laws enacted that benefit the most people, even if they don’t necessarily benefit him directly. A patriot will stand and defend the rights of others to do things that he personally dislikes for a higher principal. Without patriots, there would be no United States of America or Canada as we know them today. For that, I am thankful.

Agreed, FIK. Patriotism has gotten a bad name from a large group of jingoistic nuts. There is a form of it that is invidious and a form that is beneficial, just like any kind of appreciation.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Doug-

Agreed, FIK. Patriotism has gotten a bad name from a large group of jingoistic nuts. There is a form of it that is invidious and a form that is beneficial, just like any kind of appreciation.

I agree.  Mostly patriotism is good.  I suppose there is a small section that could be bad.  This all goes back to the discussions we’ve had here concerning the usefulness of identity and separation of cultures.
For me those are definitely NOT bad things within a framework of general inclusiveness and basic legal protections.  I also feel strongly about the economy and how nationalism is a strong factor in economic realities.  As I’ve said before this experiment in globalization is still underway and is revealing some stress and tensions.  Stress and tensions I believe to be the boundaries of workability. I feel some retraction is in order, and I think this will be borne out in due time.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I agree.  Mostly patriotism is good.  I suppose there is a small section that could be bad.  This all goes back to the discussions we’ve had here concerning the usefulness of identity and separation of cultures.
For me those are definitely NOT bad things within a framework of general inclusiveness and basic legal protections.  I also feel strongly about the economy and how nationalism is a strong factor in economic realities.  As I’ve said before this experiment in globalization is still underway and is revealing some stress and tensions.  Stress and tensions I believe to be the boundaries of workability. I feel some retraction is in order, and I think this will be borne out in due time.

Once again it depends on someone’s definition of patriotism. is it loyalty to a country because you were born there and owe an allegiance to the state or are you a patriot ready to defend an ideal, like universal liberty and egalitarianism? In the latter patriotism is indeed a good thing as it benefits all mankind and would be worth dying to preserve. Unbridled patriotism is thoughtless and has led to a fascist system of cultural and racial superiority. If you want a taste of this philosophy read Josiah Strong’s book ” Our Country”, a diatribe about the superiority of America, The Anglo-Saxon race and the “white man"s burden. This led us into a war with Spain and was used as an excuse to tame the Indians and the Filipinos after the Span-Am war. And ironically, the atheist banner flies in front of the statue that encourages the world to seek freedom here. Even though I do respect those Americans who fought and died for that ideal, like Thomas Paine I consider myself a citizen of the world. My true loyalty lies with the above universal freedom, free thought and equality for all. Those are causes worth fighting to preserve.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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mid atlantic - 06 July 2012 08:20 AM

As an atheist, or freethinker, I’m aware that your place of birth is just a product of chance.  That cancels out any feeling of exceptionalism.

Kind of like what Carlin says in the clips W4U linked; it’s fine to be happy with where you live, or feel lucky to be in a certain place, but loving your country at the expense of everything else shows a lack of sophistication IMO.

`
George really nails the pride/patriotism thing in this attached quote/pic :)


`

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Posted: 06 July 2012 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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George Carlin did have a way with words…... LOL

Just ran across this link.  This may not be directly pertinent to the discussion, but does give some indirect insight into the problem of defining patriotism and by extension exceptionalism.

http://socialpolicy.ca/52100/m17/m17-t2.stm

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Posted: 06 July 2012 07:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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The NAZIs can lay claim to the first three. The last one we’d all better watch out for; it opened the door for the new KKK founded in 1919 and based on an anti-immigrant anti-communist theme. this klan clothed itself in super patriotic rhetoric and virulent hate speeches, blaming the nation’s ills on immigrants and minorities. History can repeat itself if we let it.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 06 July 2012 09:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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VA-

Once again it depends on someone’s definition of patriotism. is it loyalty to a country because you were born there and owe an allegiance to the state or are you a patriot ready to defend an ideal, like universal liberty and egalitarianism? In the latter patriotism is indeed a good thing as it benefits all mankind and would be worth dying to preserve. Unbridled patriotism is thoughtless and has led to a fascist system of cultural and racial superiority. If you want a taste of this philosophy read Josiah Strong’s book ” Our Country”, a diatribe about the superiority of America, The Anglo-Saxon race and the “white man"s burden. This led us into a war with Spain and was used as an excuse to tame the Indians and the Filipinos after the Span-Am war. And ironically, the atheist banner flies in front of the statue that encourages the world to seek freedom here. Even though I do respect those Americans who fought and died for that ideal, like Thomas Paine I consider myself a citizen of the world. My true loyalty lies with the above universal freedom, free thought and equality for all. Those are causes worth fighting to preserve.

I’m a nationalist.  All of the virtues which you described above can come from a sovereign state.  In fact, the US has exported many of those virtues.  And the US has been a beacon of hope for millions of people.
I’m saying consider nation states individual “people” getting along universally on the Earth.  I think the demarcation of nation states isn’t an accident.  And there’s been enough history to 100% prove that the planet is not goin to “Pangeasize” into one “world”.
I’m familiar with the many foibles of the US of A too, alot of it disgusts me.  But hey, that’s nature.  We can be our own harshest critics if we want too.
Universal freedom aint gonna happen.  Unless you can find a way to rewire human behavior. And evolution in time won’t fix it either.  Not in the sense you think it could be improved.
With the disparity of living standards, education, sanitation, wealth and infrastructure found across the globe, this “citizenry of the world” you speak of is lowering the standards of the US without any of the benefits of “Universal Freedom” that you mention. On the contrary, it’s why people should be patriotic and slightly protectionest.  That’s the hard reality.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 11:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Axegrrl - 06 July 2012 04:05 PM

George really nails the pride/patriotism thing in this attached quote/pic smile

If I may react?

Bingo!

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Posted: 07 July 2012 05:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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I’m a nationalist.  All of the virtues which you described above can come from a sovereign state.  In fact, the US has exported many of those virtues.  And the US has been a beacon of hope for millions of people.
I’m saying consider nation states individual “people” getting along universally on the Earth.  I think the demarcation of nation states isn’t an accident.  And there’s been enough history to 100% prove that the planet is not goin to “Pangeasize” into one “world”.
I’m familiar with the many foibles of the US of A too, alot of it disgusts me.  But hey, that’s nature.  We can be our own harshest critics if we want too.
Universal freedom aint gonna happen.  Unless you can find a way to rewire human behavior. And evolution in time won’t fix it either.  Not in the sense you think it could be improved.
With the disparity of living standards, education, sanitation, wealth and infrastructure found across the globe, this “citizenry of the world” you speak of is lowering the standards of the US without any of the benefits of “Universal Freedom” that you mention. On the contrary, it’s why people should be patriotic and slightly protectionest.  That’s the hard reality.


First of all, the virtues of which you speak we’re in large part borrowed from European philosophers. What we did in this country was to set up a government that put them into practice. From the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution, many of the concepts that you mention we’re from other countries and from the native population here. I’m mentioning this to show the universality of our “nationalist” ideals. And we have exported them to other countries around the world, sometimes at the point of a bayonet. We do after all have the most technologically advanced military in the World and have plenty of clout. Yes we are a beacon of hope but it would be incredibly xenophobic to think that we are the only beacon; there are many others. As to rewriting human behavior, it’s already happening. The spirit of cooperation of nation states is far more positive since the fall of Soviet Communism. We are denuclearizing our arsenal, multinational companies have spread around the world, trade agreements make it easier to ship goods and services anywhere in the World, anyone may travel to other countries and interact with cultures totally foreign to ours and there has been no major war on the planet since 1945. I’d say that’s a pretty good track record so far. And as far as Pangea, with what mankind has facing us now ex. Global warming, we’d better all get together soon or face global annihilation from starvation and disease. It would help if our legislators pulled there heads out of their nationalist butts and joined the World community to solve the one major problem that may make this argument rather trivial in the long run.


Cap’t Jack

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