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Atheism is patriotic
Posted: 07 July 2012 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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First of all, the virtues of which you speak we’re in large part borrowed from European philosophers. What we did in this country was to set up a government that put them into practice. From the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution, many of the concepts that you mention we’re from other countries and from the native population here. I’m mentioning this to show the universality of our “nationalist” ideals. And we have exported them to other countries around the world, sometimes at the point of a bayonet. We do after all have the most technologically advanced military in the World and have plenty of clout. Yes we are a beacon of hope but it would be incredibly xenophobic to think that we are the only beacon; there are many others. As to rewriting human behavior, it’s already happening. The spirit of cooperation of nation states is far more positive since the fall of Soviet Communism. We are denuclearizing our arsenal, multinational companies have spread around the world, trade agreements make it easier to ship goods and services anywhere in the World, anyone may travel to other countries and interact with cultures totally foreign to ours and there has been no major war on the planet since 1945. I’d say that’s a pretty good track record so far. And as far as Pangea, with what mankind has facing us now ex. Global warming, we’d better all get together soon or face global annihilation from starvation and disease. It would help if our legislators pulled there heads out of their nationalist butts and joined the World community to solve the one major problem that may make this argument rather trivial in the long run.


Cap’t Jack

Yeah, I won’t dispute any of that.(the first half of your comments.)  What have you described?  The normal wheelings and dealings of any nation state, modern or ancient.  All of your points can be counter-balanced.  I conceded the US has some dark points in it’s history.  But nothing off the charts comparitively. And setting up a Government/Nation that put those ideas into practice is no small feat.  Especially in a world of monarchies.

Despite what the market-mongers and politicians who are fed by the bankers and marketeers would have you believe, we are in a fierce competition with China.  A competition that is one of the main reasons for our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq.

One could argue-easily, that the many small conflicts, genocides, wars etc are all part of a World War right now. In fact they pretty much are.

People have always been able to travel the world and see other cultures. There’s been exceptions, and there still is.
Using history as a reference, I would say your glasses are too rose colored in regards to the developments for the future. For example, I
see global warming as a catalyst for war and misery.  I see global trade as another means to misery and war.  Just like it always has been.
We’ll see….

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Posted: 08 July 2012 05:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Yeah, I won’t dispute any of that.(the first half of your comments.)  What have you described?  The normal wheelings and dealings of any nation state, modern or ancient.  All of your points can be counter-balanced.


Not in this case, the U.S. is unique in putting into action a true representative Democracy by cobbling together the ancient concept of republican Rome and democratic Greece coupled with enlightnment philosophies. These led to the framing of the first written constitution in world history. It was then exported to other countries but as I said before these concepts came from European and Native cultures so how can they be counter balanced?


Despite what the market-mongers and politicians who are fed by the bankers and marketeers would have you believe, we are in a fierce competition with China.  A competition that is one of the main reasons for our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I don’t like it any more than you do but this isn’t new; we’ve been trading partners with China since 1787 and they have been a prime market place for U.S. goods since we’ve been a country. Why should we be aghast that the Chinese are now turning the tables on us and flooding our country with their goods? As you say in another post Sam Walton isn’t helping things and he’s only one of many 1%ers taking advantage of the Chinese market. Short of nationalizing the industries or economic sanctions against China, ex. a high tariff, we have little choice in the matter. Walmart goods are cheaper and those underemployed will shop there. And no unions are allowed so the workers suffer. Don’t get me started on Wally mart, my brother works for them.

 

One could argue-easily, that the many small conflicts, genocides, wars etc are all part of a World War right now. In fact they pretty much are.


Nope, wrong on this point. The conflict beginning in China in 1932 and ending in 1945 brought nine tenths of the World into war. It was the last global conflict and it killed untold millions (specific figs. available for each country) The conflicts now are brush fires compared to World War II and the cost was enormous. Whole cities were destroyed and ethnic populations virtually wiped out as a result. And there are quite a number of countries still enjoying peace and prosperity today.


People have always been able to travel the world and see other cultures. There’s been exceptions, and there still is.
Using history as a reference, I would say your glasses are too rose colored in regards to the developments for the future. For example, I
see global warming as a catalyst for war and misery.  I see global trade as another means to misery and war.  Just like it always has been.
We’ll see….


No they haven’t. Travel by ship was the only way across the pond before passenger service began in the 1930’s. Until this Century, most of the middle class and the poor traveled by necessity only and even then it took their life savings just to get here. Leisure travel began in the 1950’s with the advent of cheaper air fares and transcontinental jet airliners. Now for the wealthy, that’s another story! See references to the Hindenberg! Don’t be so gloom and doom Vyasma! The glass is half full man. I can’t help it, I’m an eternal optimist and always have been. Maybe there’s a gene for that but I hope for the future and fight for it too. Let’s pressure the legislature to return jobs here, push back the lobbies and work on soft energy projects and boycott wallymart. It can be done; it has been done in the past if people organize and I don’t mean just march. That’s been played out.


Cap’t jack

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Posted: 08 July 2012 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Cap’t Jack,  I’m sure we agree on most historcal points of fact here.  We’re straying away from my position on patriotism, and your position on the perils of patriotism.
You brought up points of historical fact that detract from your view of patriotism. American patriotism in this instance.  I think I showed that relative to history, there is no reason to poo poo the impetus for patriotism in our country.  Or any country for that matter.

I’ve also tried to relate here and in other threads that whether some folks like it or not, patriotism or nationalism(I’m using the words partially interchangeable here.)is fundamental to a country’s well being.  How do you think the average Chinese or German citizen is concerning nationalism?  Austrian, Czech?  Japanese, Mexican? Russian, Canadian? Etc.

I guarantee you that these people have in general a feeling of nationalism that relates to their cultural and economic viabilty.  Their identity and their well-being.
And so do we in America.

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Posted: 09 July 2012 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Uh oh, my communalism is showing again Vyasma. BTW the historical references were meant to bolster my point that we are slowly morphing into a world community and I guess I’m going farther afield from the op. Digression is one of the hazards of teaching! Yes most people are nationalists and concern themselves with their corner of the World and as long as that means helping others in your tribe to live a better life, then so be it. My problem with nationalism is it leads to the myopia we’ve all heard here from the conservative side and my views are colored by the 60’s where the cons screamed “My country right or wrong”. I didn’t buy it then and I don’t buy it now. America is still a dynamic country with high ideals, representative democracy, the philosophy of equality for all even though that ideal hasn’t been entirely met yet, kick ass music blended from all over the globe, freedom of expression, even on this site and freedom from the shackles of superstitutious thought. So yeah, we figure pretty well in theWorld community. What I meant about globalism is that there are many problems effecting us as a species that we’d better work on and our community could lead the efforts to solve them. To me, that is true patriotism; help yourself and the other guy. bottom line, flag waving patriotism is ok as long as the flag doesn’t flap in your face and blind you to the facts.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 09 July 2012 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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VA,  you got it right down pat.  I just lean a little to the thinking that nations maintaing a modicum of identity, nationalism, and yes a sprinkling of protectionism, isn’t a bad thing.
I can’t stress enough that our competitors definitely have that angle towards Ole’ Uncle Sam.  It would be naive to think that we can extend the branch of Global Togetherness to every nation.  Nations are entering into agreements and or treaties largely for their own interests.
If we look at our trade with China for example, which might seem like a universal pact of mutual benefit, we have to look at how that has benefited the US, and how the Chinese might view that trade agreement. 
There’s a happy medium there somewhere, I’m just concerned that we keep in the happy medium, and not forsake millions of people’s jobs and standards for the benefit of a few who are benefitting from a trade agreement.  And obversely, to take part in a nation’s “Great Leap Forward Part II”.  In other words sacrificing our well being so that millions and millions of peasants can come out of the rice paddies and migrate to overcrowded cities to work in sweatshops for peanuts.
Anyway you cut it, that equation is going to bad for the US.(and many other nations too!)

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Posted: 09 July 2012 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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There’s a happy medium there somewhere, I’m just concerned that we keep in the happy medium, and not forsake millions of people’s jobs and standards for the benefit of a few who are benefitting from a trade agreement.  And obversely, to take part in a nation’s “Great Leap Forward Part II”.  In other words sacrificing our well being so that millions and millions of peasants can come out of the rice paddies and migrate to overcrowded cities to work in sweatshops for peanuts.
Anyway you cut it, that equation is going to bad for the US.(and many other nations too!)


I don’t think that anyone here would disagree with you on that point. China may well be experiencing it’s own recession in the near future. The problem is that businesses in the U.S. rely on those very peasants to produce the cheap goods sold to our economically disadvantaged. And retailers here aren’t willing to lower their prices as this would cut their profits considerably. In this case bringing industries back here would definitely be beneficial but I foresee a series of tariff wars if that happens and hungry peasants can do terrible things!


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 11 July 2012 03:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Religion or lack of it has absolutley nothing to do with whether you are patriotic or not.  If you are simply saying you can be an atheist and a patriot you are correct.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Not if the xtian reconstructionists have anything to say about it. Over the past century the fundie movement has increasingly attempted to tie religion and partiotism into one package. Hence the words “under god” added to the pledge. Their attempt to rewrite American history has been exposed in Rada’s book “Liars for Jesus” where he debunks the latest revisionist movement to show that America was founded as a xtian nation. The implication here is that atheists are unpatriotic and I believe even the sainted George Bush made mention of this point.


http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/fred_edwords/patriot.html


Cap’t Jack

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