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New voter ID laws politically motivated?
Posted: 10 July 2012 11:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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mid atlantic - 09 July 2012 06:57 AM

I don’t know….

what’s the big problem with this? I mean how hard is it to get I.D. in this country?

The whole issue seems like nitpicking.

There are states where the DMV is a considerable distance away, and only open twice a month. I believe Wisconsin fits that model. Many older people do not have driver’s licenses or state IDs or Birth Certificates around the house. My mother would have been one such person. Older people born in rural areas often did not have their births recorded. They also found that in at least one state, you need a birth certificate to get a state ID, and a state ID to get your birth certificate. Even here in CA, when I took my son to get his driver’s license, I presented his birth certificate. They would not take it. They said I had to use his Social Security (not to be used as ID) Card. When we went to get a copy of his SS card, they asked for the same birth certificate the DMV rejected. I gave it to them, got the copy and returned to the DMV. Now imagine if I were 80 and did not drive and did not have a birth certificate. I did not have mine until I applied for a passport. It is much better now, but back then, when you applied for a Hawaiian birth certificate, you received it….whenever. My uncle applied for a birth certificate 10 years ago, and it had been lost. I don’t know what he needed it for, but he was furious. It IS a Big Deal.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Rocinante - 10 July 2012 06:18 PM

If only hypocrisy served as an ID, Democrats wold never be with theirs:


An ID is required to get inside Eric Holder’s Department of “Justice.” 


Michelle Obama requires a photo ID and SS number before she will sign her book.


Here a union (which donated over $26 million to Democratic candidates and causes since 1990) requires a photo ID to vote in one of its elections:

111207_boeinggraphic_ap_328.jpg


Democrats require ID to get into their convention.


But the all time best is showing how easy it is to vote using Eric Holder’s name without any ID. grin  grin


We all know the real reason Democrats oppose showing a valid ID to vote (in elections other than Democrat-dominated union elections).  It’s because IDs make it harder for them to commit vote fraud.  Period.  All the hyperventilated screaming about “racism” (besides being projection on their part) comes from the Party-That-Cries-Racism.  Hardly a day goes by they don’t scream it.  It’s really all they have because they can’t oppose voter ID on rational grounds, so they resort to the emotional (and false) claim of racism.   

things-that-require-an-ID.jpg

I’m a card carrying libertarian (pun intended), and I have no problem with ID for any of the above.  Of course, I’m also against voter fraud.  Democrats are not against it.  Plain and simple.

What constitutes a valid ID? Each one of the above services can and do require different ID’s. Some no more than a utility bill addressed to the person at a certain address, other may require a birth certificate, some states require a minimum time of residence, some don’t. Even a written testimony of identification from a third party, “I have been his/her neighbor for 27 years” should be sufficient.

[ Edited: 11 July 2012 12:21 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 11 July 2012 12:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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asanta - 10 July 2012 11:17 PM
mid atlantic - 09 July 2012 06:57 AM

I don’t know….

what’s the big problem with this? I mean how hard is it to get I.D. in this country?

The whole issue seems like nitpicking.

There are states where the DMV is a considerable distance away, and only open twice a month. I believe Wisconsin fits that model. Many older people do not have driver’s licenses or state IDs or Birth Certificates around the house. My mother would have been one such person. Older people born in rural areas often did not have their births recorded. They also found that in at least one state, you need a birth certificate to get a state ID, and a state ID to get your birth certificate. Even here in CA, when I took my son to get his driver’s license, I presented his birth certificate. They would not take it. They said I had to use his Social Security (not to be used as ID) Card. When we went to get a copy of his SS card, they asked for the same birth certificate the DMV rejected. I gave it to them, got the copy and returned to the DMV. Now imagine if I were 80 and did not drive and did not have a birth certificate. I did not have mine until I applied for a passport. It is much better now, but back then, when you applied for a Hawaiian birth certificate, you received it….whenever. My uncle applied for a birth certificate 10 years ago, and it had been lost. I don’t know what he needed it for, but he was furious. It IS a Big Deal.

Well that sucks to go through,  but we’ve all heard how ridiculously the state of California handles it’s business;  all citizens should be required to obtain national I.D. at a certain age.  Those that can’t handle the responsible for it, or refuse to cooperate should simply be punished and swept aside.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 12:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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dougsmith - 10 July 2012 11:06 PM
mid atlantic - 10 July 2012 11:01 PM

If you’re that damn poor, then you should not even worry about voting, IMO.

They should add a new amendment to the constitution - destitute stay away.

I assume you are joking. Early voting laws actually did have such disenfranchising ‘amendments’: only property owners could vote, and slaves (for example) could not.

I always thought that made sense.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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We all know the real reason Democrats oppose showing a valid ID to vote (in elections other than Democrat-dominated union elections).  It’s because IDs make it harder for them to commit vote fraud.  Period.  All the hyperventilated screaming about “racism” (besides being projection on their part) comes from the Party-That-Cries-Racism.  Hardly a day goes by they don’t scream it.  It’s really all they have because they can’t oppose voter ID on rational grounds, so they resort to the emotional (and false) claim of racism.   

So as a counter argument all you really have are ad hominem attacks on the Democratic party. Your argument is as one of your references says, “hot air”. The straw man attack on unions proves absolutely nothing as the right and I guess libertarians (although I know libertarians who support unions)  seem to see them as counters to the 1%ers who back the right. Identification is necessary as in the past infiltrators have been hired to skew the vote and disrupt meetings. I carry an Id card from our union but the only time it is required is at an annual meeting of reps. So unions back the Dem. party, so what? The NRA backs the Republican party. Groups align themselves with the political party that best serves their own interests and those of their membership. And I guess you would be emotional too if you couldn’t vote because you were Latino, black, elderly (looking forward to that are you?) or young and ignorant of . the laws. and yes racism is still with us even today. It’s roots are deep and hard to eradicate. And BTW keeping people from the polls isn’t anything new, before the voting rights act we had the poll tax and it’s ancestors the grandfather clause, and the literacy test. So disenfranchisement isn’t a novel idea here in the U.S. this isn’t an appeal to emotion, it’s an appeal to fairness under the law.
And what’s up with attacking Eric Holder because the police require an I’d to see him? You think you’re just going to stroll into an office of a government official without being checked out first? In view of what’s happened in the last decade you’re lucky to get enter a national monument without being checked out. They wouldn’t let us into the Statue of Liberty without checking our identity. Once again a straw man argument. Same thing with Michelle Obama. You don’t often get to stroll up to the first lady and ask to get your book signed. So to arguments, I just don’t see false claims nor emotional responses regarding voter ids. what I see is the need to allow all Americans to vote, and all impediments to that should be removed regardless of party affiliation. I’d be just as pissed if their were restrictions against wealthy white conservative males even though they actually dominate politics. I’d show pics of them at Wall street in their suits looking smug but don’t know how to do that yet, but you can create a mental picture.


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Posted: 11 July 2012 06:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Oops, forgot to include a reference to bolster my counter: Jim Crow is still very much alive.


http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/florida-how-quickly-we-forget/


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Posted: 11 July 2012 08:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Write4U - 11 July 2012 12:16 AM

What constitutes a valid ID? Each one of the above services can and do require different ID’s. Some no more than a utility bill addressed to the person at a certain address, other may require a birth certificate, some states require a minimum time of residence, some don’t. Even a written testimony of identification from a third party, “I have been his/her neighbor for 27 years” should be sufficient.

Most of those things are established in youth. I’ve had my utilities, phone etc for 40 years.  I did not need an ID at the time to set up the accounts then. My guess is that an 80 year old would have had theirs for MUCH longer, it is a bad argument.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 08:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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mid atlantic - 11 July 2012 12:53 AM

I always thought that made sense.

....and until the Civil Rights movement of the 60s, blacks were not allowed to vote in many parts of the south. Was that okay too?

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Posted: 11 July 2012 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Bryan - 10 July 2012 01:32 PM

Let’s try something different.  Instead of criticizing the motivations of those who are coming up with voter ID laws and trying to remove non-citizens from voter rolls, please share what you would do to help ensure that ineligible voters do not erode the franchise for legitimate voters.

I don’t know how many different ways to say this make you understand. There is no such problem. Unless you are really talking about “the wrong kind of people” eroding the franchise for conservative voters.

You want to talk about the real disenfranchisement in America? Let’s talk about how Super Pacs allow the richest individuals and corporations to effectively disenfranchise 99% of voters. That’s the real crime here. Until we have true campaign finance reform the rest is just straining at gnats.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 11 July 2012 05:50 AM

So as a counter argument all you really have are ad hominem attacks on the Democratic party.

It’s not an ad hominem if it is true.  And in this case it is true.  Democrats commit more voter fraud than Republicans.  I’m not saying all Democrats.  I’m not evens saying most.  But between the Democrats and Republicans, the Dems do it more.  If that fact causes you uncomfortable cognitive dissonance, I can’t help that.  I’m not saying Republicans don’t commit voter fraud.  They do.  Perhaps Republicans want to – and would -  engage in as much voter fraud as Democrats if they could.  Perhaps they currently try and just fail more than Democrats.  It doesn’t matter.  Because even if Republicans commit an equal amount of voter fraud as Democrats, the point is that identification would help lessen voter fraud.  And that is the only reason Democrats oppose identification in order to vote.  No, voter ID won’t stop all voter fraud, but it is a step in the right direction. 

It has nothing to do with racism.  Is it racist for Michelle Obama’s handlers to demand ID before she will sign a copy of her book?  Of course not.  Is it racist to show photo ID before entering Attorney General Holder’s Department of Justice?  Of course not?  Is it racist to show ID before entering the Democrats’ Convention?  Of course not.  Is it racist to show an ID for any of the myriad of activities listed in the above graphic?  Of course not.  But here’s the rub:  Democrats only started claiming “racism” when ID is required to vote.  They never said it for any of the previously mentioned activities.  Their same lame argument could be made for all of the above: “How is a person without an ID going to get a signed copy of Michelle Obama’s book?  RACIST!”  “How is a person without an ID going to rent a movie?  RACIST!”  But they never made those claims because they are stupid and silly – just like their current false claim about voter ID. 

The fact is that the claim by Democrats that blacks or the poor may not have have IDs or will have trouble getting them is the true racist and bigoted stance.  How high and mighty do Democrats really think they are with their belief of, “Oh, those poor, pitiful, ignorant blacks and poor people.  They can’t be expected to take care of themselves and do the simplest of things to get an ID to help make their life easier.  Why it might require reading or writing on their part or even contact with other human beings outside their hovels!  How on earth will they manage?  They can’t!  They’re just too stupid.  It’s best that they never have an ID, they probably couldn’t handle the responsibility.”  That is exactly what the left is claiming.  They are the true racists in this case.  And it’s sickening!  Even more sickening than their desire to have elections where people vote without an ID.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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It’s not an ad hominem if it is true.

and political truth is often in the eye of the believer.

I can’t believe you equate those few who may try to vote twice or vote in a district in which they no longer live with the wholesale fraud perpetrated, for example, in Texas where extreme gerrymandering and caging were imposed and which still haven’t been significantly undone.  I certainly admit that the Republicans are far more effective at fraud than the Democrats.  When they do it they compromise tens of thousands of votes rather than just a few that seldom amount to much.  Unfortunately, making it tougher for citizens to exercise their right to vote isn’t the solution to voter fraud problems.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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This may be a silly question but aren’t the people pushing for voter ID basically the same groups that were opposing a national ID card a few years ago and are constantly fighting larger, intrusive gov’t?

Actually I think if you want more people to vote stop using the voters list as the main basis for calling people to jury duty.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 07:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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The fact is that the claim by Democrats that blacks or the poor may not have have IDs or will have trouble getting them is the true racist and bigoted stance.  How high and mighty do Democrats really think they are with their belief of, “Oh, those poor, pitiful, ignorant blacks and poor people.  They can’t be expected to take care of themselves and do the simplest of things to get an ID to help make their life easier.  Why it might require reading or writing on their part or even contact with other human beings outside their hovels!  How on earth will they manage?  They can’t!  They’re just too stupid.  It’s best that they never have an ID, they probably couldn’t handle the responsibility.”  That is exactly what the left is claiming.  They are the true racists in this case.  And it’s sickening!  Even more sickening than their desire to have elections where people vote without an ID.


You’re just playing devil’s advocate, right Roci? You don’t really believe this rant about how racism doesn’t come in to play in this election? And blaming the Democrats for what the neocon reps. Are doing to get that black guy out of our whitehouse and turn government over to the oligarchy, hungry to shape laws to benefit them? And you really believe that despite the evidence presented here that minorities aren’t being disenfranchised because they may vote for dem. candidates? Not convinced by the evidence that gerrymandering, even in my state where there is a rep. Majority, they are breaking up and isolating primarily dem districts to skew the vote in favor of the republicans? And no, the left are bringing this attempted take over to the attention of the American people to fulfill the Voting Rights Act, not to embarrass minorities, but to champion their rights. And as I said earlier, racism still rears it’s ugly head. Think of the Tea Party; you know those right wing reps and libertarians who are so fond of freedom and equality. Remember how their members spat on black members of congress calling them the N word? And that’s not racist? Now that’s sickening!


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Posted: 11 July 2012 08:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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asanta - 11 July 2012 08:50 AM
mid atlantic - 11 July 2012 12:53 AM

I always thought that made sense.

....and until the Civil Rights movement of the 60s, blacks were not allowed to vote in many parts of the south. Was that okay too?

Depends. 

It’s undeniable that it was illegal to ban them from voting.  However, the black people in those regions didn’t have any candidate worth voting for to begin with, so in practice, being banned from voting was business as usual.

Unless we consider the very essence of being able to vote as the most important thing, which I strongly disagree with.

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Posted: 11 July 2012 08:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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garythehuman - 11 July 2012 02:29 PM

This may be a silly question but aren’t the people pushing for voter ID basically the same groups that were opposing a national ID card a few years ago and are constantly fighting larger, intrusive gov’t?

Actually I think if you want more people to vote stop using the voters list as the main basis for calling people to jury duty.

For the most part yes, but I think the ones pushing for national ID were arguing from a terrorism and national security POV.

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