4 of 17
4
New voter ID laws politically motivated?
Posted: 12 July 2012 12:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3349
Joined  2007-11-21
FreeInKy - 11 July 2012 10:15 AM
Bryan - 10 July 2012 01:32 PM

Let’s try something different.  Instead of criticizing the motivations of those who are coming up with voter ID laws and trying to remove non-citizens from voter rolls, please share what you would do to help ensure that ineligible voters do not erode the franchise for legitimate voters.

I don’t know how many different ways to say this make you understand.

It’s now how you say it, it’s that you say it without any foundation in evidence.  You’re apparently using the strategy I mentioned earlier:  If we don’t have known cases of voter fraud then there aren’t any.  That’s the fallacy of appeal to ignorance.  I can explain it in detail if needed.

I’ve described some of the problems associated with detecting voter fraud.  You should address that issue.

There is no such problem.

A non-citizen can register to vote simply by signing an affidavit indicating valid citizenship.  Not a problem?  Who looks at these things?  Usually nobody, until Florida looked at it this year and found a thousands of suspicious cases.  But since there’s no problem we don’t look for evidence of a problem?

Unless you are really talking about “the wrong kind of people” eroding the franchise for conservative voters.

I’ll repeat the gist of what I wrote earlier:  Ineligible voters are the wrong kind of voter whether white, Republican or whatever.  Probably means I’m a racist!  grin

You want to talk about the real disenfranchisement in America? Let’s talk about how Super Pacs allow the richest individuals and corporations to effectively disenfranchise 99% of voters. That’s the real crime here. Until we have true campaign finance reform the rest is just straining at gnats.

That a whole different can of worms (about which we’ll doubtless disagree), but I encourage you to stick to the subject and address the substance of our current disagreement.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 01:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Bryan - 12 July 2012 12:50 AM

A non-citizen can register to vote simply by signing an affidavit indicating valid citizenship.  Not a problem?  Who looks at these things?  Usually nobody, until Florida looked at it this year and found a thousands of suspicious cases.  But since there’s no problem we don’t look for evidence of a problem?

Florida’s idea of a ‘suspicious case’ is that there is a felon by the name of John Smith in X county. I find 30 John Smiths registered to vote in that county, one of which may be the felon. Just to be on the safe side, let’s remove ALL of the John Smiths, and let them prove they are NOT the felon.
Previously, people would just be threatened when they attempted to vote, or they would tell them the voting site was closed, or close it early. Another trick is to send out information giving the incorrect voting date, or to tell them they’d already voted. In my cousin’s neighborhood in the south, there were all these ‘tricks’ and more….all to discourage blacks from voting….in 2008. There has been NO evidence of a high rate of voter fraud, there has been MUCH more evidence of voter disenfranchisement, yet you (and the GOP) have no interest in correcting that well documented problem.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 01:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
garythehuman - 11 July 2012 02:29 PM

This may be a silly question but aren’t the people pushing for voter ID basically the same groups that were opposing a national ID card a few years ago…...

You know, I’d completely forgotten about that!

and are constantly fighting larger, intrusive gov’t?

Unless it has to do with a woman’s reproductive choices..of course!

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 04:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

I’m still not getting something. People are required to have valid ID’s to do just about any sort of business these days from obtaining a license, to buying certain restricted consumer products (Tobacco, alcohol, firearms) or to obtain any sort of credit, open a bank account, board an airplane, etcetera, ad nauseum.

The whole point of the exercise is to make sure that the person is who s/he claims to be and is legally eligible to engage in whatever business they’re engaged in.

Nobody thinks anything of it or bats and eyelash at it.

So what’s the magic trick when it comes to exercise of the franchise? How is it that suddenly, magically, miraculously even, that it’s somehow an infringement on somebody’s rights to verify that they are in fact

a) who they claim to be and

b) that they are in fact legally eligible to engage in the franchise?????

Can anybody give me a reason for this? (And preferably without all the party line rheotoric I’ve seen here from both sides!)

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3154
Joined  2011-08-15

Valid questions but it would be very difficult to separate party affiliation from the answer as the reps. Are responsible for the straw man “voter fraud” issue. And yes there are many people who don’t posess the “right” type of ID for voting as many have previously mentioned before. In fact the Bush admin. actually researched voter fraud and found less that 90 cases nationwide. So why all the hub bub about IDs? Check out Pennsylvania for a clue. Ad that’s just one of many rep. Dominated state governments willing to skew the vote their way.


http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120712/OPINION04/307120002/Eugene-Robinson-Crime-against-voters

Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 12:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 12 July 2012 04:39 AM

I’m still not getting something. People are required to have valid ID’s to do just about any sort of business these days from obtaining a license, to buying certain restricted consumer products (Tobacco, alcohol, firearms) or to obtain any sort of credit, open a bank account, board an airplane, etcetera, ad nauseum.

The whole point of the exercise is to make sure that the person is who s/he claims to be and is legally eligible to engage in whatever business they’re engaged in.

Nobody thinks anything of it or bats and eyelash at it.

So what’s the magic trick when it comes to exercise of the franchise? How is it that suddenly, magically, miraculously even, that it’s somehow an infringement on somebody’s rights to verify that they are in fact

a) who they claim to be and

b) that they are in fact legally eligible to engage in the franchise?????

Can anybody give me a reason for this? (And preferably without all the party line rheotoric I’ve seen here from both sides!)

Most elderly people set up their banking accounts long, long ago. They bank at the same institution for years and years and years. My mom banked at the same Wells Fargo branch where she and my dad set up an account 40yrs previous. They NEVER asked my mom for ID. Everyone in the bank knew her. If there was a new teller, she got into the line where she knew the teller simply because she liked to chit chat with the teller while she banked. She knew the children’s names and ages, and the name of the husband/wife etc. I don’t think this situation is unusual.  Most seniors do not get on airplanes, utilities were set up decades ago. My mother could have gone about her life quite easily without identification. She did get an ID so she could fly to the east coast for her grandson’s graduation. She didn’t have a birth certificate, but she DID have a older brother and cousin who could swear out a declaration and a record of HS graduation in a nearby city. These are no longer accepted.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

....and as I have mentioned before, with all of the cutbacks, many DMV offices are only open twice a month. Government offices are open only 4 days a week. Public transportation has been cut back, and in many states public transportation may not get you close enough to walk to the office. This IS a documented issue. Voter fraud is NOT.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20
asanta - 12 July 2012 12:51 PM

....and as I have mentioned before, with all of the cutbacks, many DMV offices are only open twice a month. Government offices are open only 4 days a week. Public transportation has been cut back, and in many states public transportation may not get you close enough to walk to the office. This IS a documented issue.

Once again, this bigoted and specious claim is utter nonsense.  Some of those claiming it are so stupid they take the time to fly to Washington D.C. (wonder if they had to show ID to get on the plane?) and then take more time to testify before Congress about how it was too much trouble, to find the time to have Mommy and Daddy drive her to get a free photo ID.  They are so blinded by their ideology they don’t see the ridiculousness of their bigoted claims contrasted with their useful idiot actions. 

asanta - 12 July 2012 12:51 PM

Voter fraud is NOT.


Um, ever hear of a place called “Chicago”?  I won’t do your homework for you on this one, but its time-honored tradition of voter fraud and dead people voting is so rampant it is probably the main reason Obama made a beeline there from Hawaii to start his political career.  A corrupt system will attract corrupt politicians.   

John Fun’s book Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy says the following:

A note about partisanship: Since Democrats figure prominently in the vast majority of examples of election fraud described in this book, some readers will jump to the conclusion that this is a one-sided attack on a single party.  I do not believe Republicans are inherently more virtuous or honest than anyone else in politics…
[Emphasis added.]


Here, a Democrat has resigned after confessing to committing hundreds of acts of voter fraud.

I can only assume by this myrmidon’s mindless spouting of the “change” platitude he voted for Obama.  He then goes on to confess he voted for him more than once. 

Here’s just a sampling of cases from various states:

San Francisco.

East Chicago (of course!)

Passaic, New Jersey.

Orlando, Florida.

South Dakota.

New York & Florida.

Cleveland.

Colorado, Florida, Minnesota, New Mexico, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

New Mexico

Orange County, California.

Kentucky.

Nevada.


Kentucky appeared to be bipartisan, Nevada was purely Republican.  The rest were…well it’s obvious.

When it comes to U.S. elections, people are only allowed to vote once.  Foreign nationals are not allowed to vote.  Dead people are not allowed to vote.  Certain felons are not allowed to vote.  But since illegal aliens, the dead and criminals are generally solidly in the Democrat’s voter base, they have relied on them for so long, Democrats do not want to lose their votes when many elections are so close.  They need every vote—illegal or otherwise—they can get their hands on.  That is the only reason they oppose ID in order to vote.  Granted, I realize their blind faith in their ideology actually makes many on the left actually believe the nonsense talking point about “racism,” but it is not racist.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 July 2012 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11

First of all I NEVER mentioned race or racist. YOU brought that up.Secondly, please tell me where photo IDs are free? While you’re at it, tell me where you can get free birth certificates to get them, and where free taxis run.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 July 2012 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

Most elderly people set up their banking accounts long, long ago.

That’s all well and good, but it really misses the point. The point being is that there are a lot of situations out there in the real waking world where having a valid ID is required. What is it about requiring the same in the exercise of the franchise which somehow magically changes everything?

In the end, the object is to make sure that somebody is who they claim to be. I don’t have a problem with that.

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 July 2012 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 13 July 2012 11:16 AM

Most elderly people set up their banking accounts long, long ago.

That’s all well and good, but it really misses the point. The point being is that there are a lot of situations out there in the real waking world where having a valid ID is required. What is it about requiring the same in the exercise of the franchise which somehow magically changes everything?

In the end, the object is to make sure that somebody is who they claim to be. I don’t have a problem with that.

While I DO understand what you are saying. I can’t remember ANYONE asking my mom for her ID for anything (she did not fly after 2001), it used to be that in order to get on an airplane, you just needed to show your ticket. She could get along quite well without it. I did not cause restrictions. How often do the police ask an elderly non-driving woman for identification. The only time I have seen an officer ask her for her name, they took her word that she was who she said she was. It has just never been necessary. I HAVE ID, in MANY forms. People ask ME to identify myself. No one ever questioned my mom about HER ID. I’d guess this is common all over the country.

...and when states erect ‘catch-22’ systems to get the valid ID, you are screwed again.

[ Edited: 13 July 2012 08:00 PM by asanta ]
 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2012 02:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2676
Joined  2011-04-24
asanta - 13 July 2012 07:56 PM
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 13 July 2012 11:16 AM

Most elderly people set up their banking accounts long, long ago.

That’s all well and good, but it really misses the point. The point being is that there are a lot of situations out there in the real waking world where having a valid ID is required. What is it about requiring the same in the exercise of the franchise which somehow magically changes everything?

In the end, the object is to make sure that somebody is who they claim to be. I don’t have a problem with that.

While I DO understand what you are saying. I can’t remember ANYONE asking my mom for her ID for anything (she did not fly after 2001), it used to be that in order to get on an airplane, you just needed to show your ticket. She could get along quite well without it. I did not cause restrictions. How often do the police ask an elderly non-driving woman for identification. The only time I have seen an officer ask her for her name, they took her word that she was who she said she was. It has just never been necessary. I HAVE ID, in MANY forms. People ask ME to identify myself. No one ever questioned my mom about HER ID. I’d guess this is common all over the country.

...and when states erect ‘catch-22’ systems to get the valid ID, you are screwed again.

Irrelevant.

ID is necessary now. If a person doesn’t have it, then they can be issued it.

[ Edited: 14 July 2012 04:25 AM by mid atlantic ]
 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2012 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3154
Joined  2011-08-15

Roci, I was Impressed by your many citations until I saw that they came from the same source. Also, Miller’s citation of Kentucky vote fraud is intrastate and has been a time honored tradition from the get go (1792). Personally I don’t like it; it makes us look stupid but it’s the grease for the political wheels in mountain communities. It is getting better, but I digress. Since we’re focusing on voter fraud here’s yet another citation referring to the lack of hard evidence, again. You talk of a particular mind set but exhibit the same. You probably listen to Ann Coilter and I like Michael Moore and my truth is more truthful than yours. So here it is:


http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/policy_brief_on_the_truth_about_voter_fraud/


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2012 06:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3154
Joined  2011-08-15

And since you referenced ACORN As an example of vote fraud this from Factcheck:

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/factchecking-debate-no-3/

 

Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 July 2012 11:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20
asanta - 12 July 2012 08:20 PM

First of all I NEVER mentioned race or racist. YOU brought that up.

Quoting YOU from within this very thread:  ”...and until the Civil Rights movement of the 60s, blacks were not allowed to vote in many parts of the south. Was that okay too?”

Some other quotes from within this thread from various posters: 

”…attempting to disenfranchise tens of thousands of minority voters…”

“And I guess you would be emotional too if you couldn’t vote because you were Latino, black...”

“...and yes racism is still with us even today.”

“Much like the laws that kept southern African Americans from the polls in earlier times…”

[Emphasis added in all of the above.]

Besides, it is near universally Democrats who oppose a person showing they can legally vote.  And Democrat’s very raison d’etre is racism.  They cry it at every problem real or imagined.  And thus, as I said, it is Democrats who claim blacks (or Latinos, or the elderly, the poor, or whatever group they claim) are too stupid, lazy, unwilling, etc. to get an ID, it is the Democrats who are the racists and bigots in this situation.  It is pure projection on their part to scream “racism” on this issue.   

asanta - 12 July 2012 08:20 PM

Secondly, please tell me where photo IDs are free? While you’re at it, tell me where you can get free birth certificates to get them, and where free taxis run.

The third sentence in the article said the ID could be obtained for free.  I do not live in Texas, so I don’t know.  But I do know that even if it weren’t free, it’s not going to break the bank.  If a person can find the time and money to get to the polls for one day every 4 years (assuming Presidential election), they surely can find the time and money to get an ID within those four years!  With voting comes responsibility. Quit demanding everything be handed to you for free and accept some responsibility and be willing to help aid in fair elections where each (living) person gets (just one) vote.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
   
4 of 17
4