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New voter ID laws politically motivated?
Posted: 14 July 2012 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 14 July 2012 06:19 AM

Roci, I was Impressed by your many citations until I saw that they came from the same source.

Actually there were multiple sources for different cases.  It was just that one source had compiled a list of multiple states.  That’s not unusual.  Your suggestion(?) that such things can be ignored (?) because they come from one source is a logical fallacy if that is what you are saying.  Each individual case stands or falls on it’sown merits, not the fact that someone compiled them into one easy to reference source.

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Posted: 14 July 2012 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 July 2012 02:31 AM

Irrelevant.

ID is necessary now. If a person doesn’t have it, then they can be issued it.

Of COURSE it is irrelevant that there are states that require a birth certificate in order to get a photo ID, and a photo ID in order to get a birth certificate…

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Posted: 14 July 2012 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Hey, I just got rid of a spam post offering to make any sort of identification.  Maybe some political group should hire them to make IDs for all the people now being disenfranchised.  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 30 July 2012 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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I happen to take the words of the pledge of allegiance, seriously, as they were ingrained in me as a school child.  ...and justice for all…. seems to me to be adequate justification for doing what is neccessary to enfranchise, rather than disenfranchise those in our society who have benefitted the least from its virtues.  Elements of the poor, unemployed, disabled, elderly, etc., who otherwise have no need for and can ill afford getting a picture ID, should not be limited by laws that make it harder for them to vote.

Any of you who advocate picture IDs for voting had been born, raised, or faced different life circumtances, it might be you who were facing defacto disenfranchisement.

Voter fraud by individuals groups is simply a red herring (as far as being a meaningful problem).  I personally have never known of anyone voting twice in an election.  And worrying about non-citizens voting, seems ridiculous to me, as well. We can’t even get a substantial percentage of actual citizens to vote in most elections.

(Also, I have a friend who is not an American citizen but is a legal resident.  He would vote Republican every time judging by his stated political beliefs.)

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Posted: 31 July 2012 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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TimB - 30 July 2012 07:40 PM

Voter fraud by individuals groups is simply a red herring (as far as being a meaningful problem).

How do you know that?  Some elections are decided by just a few votes.

I personally have never known of anyone voting twice in an election.

Begging your pardon, but that’s not exactly the most compelling evidence. 

If you knew but one then we could extrapolate based on the number of people who are willing to tell you if they committed voter fraud and estimate the total number of fraudulent votes.

And worrying about non-citizens voting, seems ridiculous to me, as well.

That settles the issue if your opinion is an authoritative indicator of reality.

We can’t even get a substantial percentage of actual citizens to vote in most elections.

(Also, I have a friend who is not an American citizen but is a legal resident.  He would vote Republican every time judging by his stated political beliefs.)

1)  To argue that voter fraud is not a problem you need evidence.  Our system doesn’t (readily) give such evidence.  Suppose somebody votes absentee after registering illegally.  How are we supposed to figure it out other than by examining the voting rolls to cull those from the mix?  Suppose somebody votes absentee in lieu of a person who ordinarily does not vote but is legally registered?  How would you detect it?  How would you detect it at the polls minus a picture ID?
2)  The concern over making it more difficult for the poor and elderly to vote is legitimate, but illegal votes have the effect of disenfranchising legal votes (such as those of the poor and elderly).  You can’t just ignore the potential problem and claim to have ensured equal protection of the laws.  It is incumbent on the state to have commonsense safeguards to ensure that the persons voting do so legally.  I’m still open to suggestions from liberals as to how to accomplish that aim.

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Posted: 31 July 2012 05:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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Quoting Bryan:

To argue that voter fraud is not a problem you need evidence.

  Geez, how many times have we pointed out in this forum that one proves a contention; asking for proof of a negative is incorrect logic.  You of all people, Bryan, should know that and avoid such statements.

I think the Florida government has tried and failed to find ANY incidences of voter fraud.

I believe one of the middle-east countries used a system where everyone could vote but had to put a finger in a strong, indelible purple dye.  That way, one couldn’t vote twice since his/her purple finger would show that s/he had already voted. 

Occam

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Posted: 31 July 2012 05:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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Occam. - 31 July 2012 05:08 PM

Quoting Bryan:

To argue that voter fraud is not a problem you need evidence.

  Geez, how many times have we pointed out in this forum that one proves a contention; asking for proof of a negative is incorrect logic.

It’s not incorrect logic to ask for proof of a negative.  If that’s the kind of nonsense that’s spread in this forum then you need me all the more.  wink

It’s incorrect logic to take the the lack of proof of a negative as proof of the positive and likewise to take the lack of proof of a positive as proof of the negative.  One doesn’t simply claim that there is no evidence of something without specifying what type of evidence we should expect and why the absence of that evidence makes the case.  I was all over that in the post to which you responded, reviewing the problem of evidence for voter fraud and how we should expect to detect it.  It ends up rather like putting the blind man in charge of detecting something by sight:  “Did you see anything?”  “No.”  “Then there’s nothing to see.”

You of all people, Bryan, should know that and avoid such statements.

On the contrary, I know better and thus deliberately avoid avoiding such statements.  And if you don’t agree with me now then you should reconsider your position promptly in light of what I’ve already written about the nature of the evidence.

I think the Florida government has tried and failed to find ANY incidences of voter fraud.

Really.  What method did they try?  Blind sentries?  And they saw nothing? 

Claiming that Florida looked for voter fraud appears to count as a positive assertion.  So I can expect evidence in support even from one who thinks asserting a negative requires no burden of proof.

http://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/678/does-a-negative-claimant-have-a-burden-of-proof

I believe one of the middle-east countries used a system where everyone could vote but had to put a finger in a strong, indelible purple dye.  That way, one couldn’t vote twice since his/her purple finger would show that s/he had already voted. 

Occam

And with absentee voting we’ll simply look for purple fingerprints?

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Posted: 09 August 2012 10:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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Bryan - 31 July 2012 05:56 PM
Occam. - 31 July 2012 05:08 PM

Quoting Bryan:

To argue that voter fraud is not a problem you need evidence.

  Geez, how many times have we pointed out in this forum that one proves a contention; asking for proof of a negative is incorrect logic.

It’s not incorrect logic to ask for proof of a negative.  If that’s the kind of nonsense that’s spread in this forum then you need me all the more.  wink

It’s incorrect logic to take the the lack of proof of a negative as proof of the positive and likewise to take the lack of proof of a positive as proof of the negative.  One doesn’t simply claim that there is no evidence of something without specifying what type of evidence we should expect and why the absence of that evidence makes the case.  I was all over that in the post to which you responded, reviewing the problem of evidence for voter fraud and how we should expect to detect it.  It ends up rather like putting the blind man in charge of detecting something by sight:  “Did you see anything?”  “No.”  “Then there’s nothing to see.”

You of all people, Bryan, should know that and avoid such statements.

On the contrary, I know better and thus deliberately avoid avoiding such statements.  And if you don’t agree with me now then you should reconsider your position promptly in light of what I’ve already written about the nature of the evidence.

I think the Florida government has tried and failed to find ANY incidences of voter fraud.

Really.  What method did they try?  Blind sentries?  And they saw nothing? 

Claiming that Florida looked for voter fraud appears to count as a positive assertion.  So I can expect evidence in support even from one who thinks asserting a negative requires no burden of proof.

http://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/678/does-a-negative-claimant-have-a-burden-of-proof

I believe one of the middle-east countries used a system where everyone could vote but had to put a finger in a strong, indelible purple dye.  That way, one couldn’t vote twice since his/her purple finger would show that s/he had already voted. 

Occam

And with absentee voting we’ll simply look for purple fingerprints?

Bryan, clearly you have excellent skill in debating.  So much so that you can support a nonsensical position, effectively.  I imagine that you could support the position that we need to pass laws protecting us from ghosts, or extraterestrial invaders, if it fit your conservative agenda in some way.  However it remains that voter ID laws ARE politically motivated, despite your adeptness with argument.  I don’t need a meterologist to convince me whether it is raining or not when all I have to do is look out the window.

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Posted: 10 August 2012 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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And with that, voter fraud is not a problem in need of a solution in TimB’s world.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2010/07/20/Al-Franken-May-Have-Won-His-Senate-Seat-Through-Voter-Fraud

Then again, maybe TimB is a Democrat.

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Posted: 10 August 2012 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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And now the rumors behind the news! OMG!  a post refuting yet another right wing Diatribe and straw an argument meant to derail the real issue.


http://mobile.alternet.org/alternet/#!/entry/gop-voter-fraud-hucksters-latest-lie-felons-made-franken-us,5022b6d97af68a84dc731fa8


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 10 August 2012 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Ok, let’s try that again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021102726

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Posted: 10 August 2012 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 10 August 2012 01:17 PM

Ok, let’s try that again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021102726

Are Fund and Spakovsky the same as “Minnesota Majority”?

If not, why does the DU story use them almost interchangeably?

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Posted: 11 August 2012 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Bryan - 10 August 2012 11:01 AM

And with that, voter fraud is not a problem in need of a solution in TimB’s world.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2010/07/20/Al-Franken-May-Have-Won-His-Senate-Seat-Through-Voter-Fraud

Then again, maybe TimB is a Democrat.

I think we are living in the same world, regardless of our political persuasions, thus, voter fraud is also not a significant problem in your world, either, Bryan, though you may percieve it to be (or perhaps you are just presenting the argument, as you are good at arguing.) The much more significant problem in the world (nation) that you and I live in (assuming you are a U.S. citizen) is the social injustice perpetrated by making laws which have a restricting effect on some citizens exercising their right to vote.

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Posted: 11 August 2012 12:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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TimB - 11 August 2012 12:16 AM
Bryan - 10 August 2012 11:01 AM

And with that, voter fraud is not a problem in need of a solution in TimB’s world.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2010/07/20/Al-Franken-May-Have-Won-His-Senate-Seat-Through-Voter-Fraud

Then again, maybe TimB is a Democrat.

I think we are living in the same world, regardless of our political persuasions, thus, voter fraud is also not a significant problem in your world, either, Bryan, though you may percieve it to be (or perhaps you are just presenting the argument, as you are good at arguing.) The much more significant problem in the world (nation) that you and I live in (assuming you are a U.S. citizen) is the social injustice perpetrated by making laws which have a restricting effect on some citizens exercising their right to vote.

The telling thing for me is that no liberal (so far as I can tell) on this thread is able to come up with a single suggestion for protecting the franchise from illegal voting.

http://electionlawcenter.com/2012/08/07/georgia-sos-minority-voter-participation-up-since-georgia-photo-id-implemented.aspx

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Posted: 11 August 2012 01:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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Bryan - 11 August 2012 12:28 AM
TimB - 11 August 2012 12:16 AM
Bryan - 10 August 2012 11:01 AM

And with that, voter fraud is not a problem in need of a solution in TimB’s world.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2010/07/20/Al-Franken-May-Have-Won-His-Senate-Seat-Through-Voter-Fraud

Then again, maybe TimB is a Democrat.

I think we are living in the same world, regardless of our political persuasions, thus, voter fraud is also not a significant problem in your world, either, Bryan, though you may percieve it to be (or perhaps you are just presenting the argument, as you are good at arguing.) The much more significant problem in the world (nation) that you and I live in (assuming you are a U.S. citizen) is the social injustice perpetrated by making laws which have a restricting effect on some citizens exercising their right to vote.

The telling thing for me is that no liberal (so far as I can tell) on this thread is able to come up with a single suggestion for protecting the franchise from illegal voting.

http://electionlawcenter.com/2012/08/07/georgia-sos-minority-voter-participation-up-since-georgia-photo-id-implemented.aspx

Ok, here’s an idea.  You cited an article about almost 400 convicted felons fraudulently voting in an election in Georgia.  Give convicted felons who have done their time, the right to vote.  Then, if they are socially responsible enough to vote, they can feel like they are part of a larger society, and may be less prone to being a repeat felon.  And since they can legally vote again, wah lah ... no voter fraud.

Note: If we lived in a truly just society, a majority of those convicted felons, should have been bankers or other white collar criminals, and hence, likely to vote Republican.  That should make you happy.

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