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New voter ID laws politically motivated?
Posted: 11 August 2012 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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I wonder which is the greater injustice:  having some illegal votes or disenfranchising citizens who fit the parameters (age, citizenship, non-felon) for being a voter?

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Posted: 12 August 2012 03:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Occam. - 11 August 2012 10:41 AM

I wonder which is the greater injustice:  having some illegal votes or disenfranchising citizens who fit the parameters (age, citizenship, non-felon) for being a voter?

Occam

Of course the greater injustice is disenfranchising voters who should be able to vote.  Thus, any measures that are taken to limit illegal voting should be ones which do not disenfranchise those citizens who fit the parameters for voting.  This is not what most laws that the Republicans are ramming through in some states.  And this is one reason that it is clear that their motivation is not primarily to end “voter fraud”, but their motivation is in fact primarily a means to disenfranchise some of those who will likely vote against them.

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Posted: 12 August 2012 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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TimB - 12 August 2012 03:23 AM
Occam. - 11 August 2012 10:41 AM

I wonder which is the greater injustice:  having some illegal votes or disenfranchising citizens who fit the parameters (age, citizenship, non-felon) for being a voter?

Occam

Of course the greater injustice is disenfranchising voters who should be able to vote.  Thus, any measures that are taken to limit illegal voting should be ones which do not disenfranchise those citizens who fit the parameters for voting.  This is not what most laws that the Republicans are ramming through in some states.  And this is one reason that it is clear that their motivation is not primarily to end “voter fraud”, but their motivation is in fact primarily a means to disenfranchise some of those who will likely vote against them.

....for example, in Texas, you can use your NRA card as legal ID, but not your University Student ID.. confused

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Posted: 12 August 2012 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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TimB - 11 August 2012 01:02 AM

Ok, here’s an idea.  You cited an article about almost 400 convicted felons fraudulently voting in an election in Georgia.

I cited two articles.  One dealt with the very close election for the senate in Minnosota in 2010, when Al Franken won after a recount by a couple hundred votes.  It’s possible that many votes were cast by ineligible voters (felons, to name one category emphasized in the story).  The second article highlighted increased voter participation among minorities after the voter ID law passed in that state.

Give convicted felons who have done their time, the right to vote.

Florida did that.  Is doing the same thing in Minnesota supposed to make the fraud disappear retroactively?

Then, if they are socially responsible enough to vote, they can feel like they are part of a larger society, and may be less prone to being a repeat felon.  And since they can legally vote again, wah lah ... no voter fraud.

Sen. Franken would like to kiss you.

Note: If we lived in a truly just society, a majority of those convicted felons, should have been bankers or other white collar criminals, and hence, likely to vote Republican.  That should make you happy.

Uh, yeah.  Because the issue of voter fraud is all about making me happy.  oh oh

I keep hearing a similar response the criminal aspects of the drug trade.  Just make drugs legal, and it will cut crime way down.

Seriously, use your imagination.  Try, just for a second, to suppose that there is a legitimate interest by society in restricting the right to vote on the part of persons who demonstrate highly irresponsible behavior in society’s midst.  To put it in terms of a reductio ad absurdum, suppose that 60 percent of American citizens turned murderous.  You convict them of murder and put them in prison.  But over the next two years they pass a referendum putting it on the ballot to make murder legal, effective retroactively.  Surprise!  A majority favor the measure.  The murderers overwhelmingly favor the new law.

But of course those in prison are at least somewhat likely viewed by you as victims.  So do this:  See if the automatic restoration of voting rights has a measurable effect on criminal recidivism (quite a few states provide for it, so there’s data out there).  Once you’re armed with some solid data your reply will turn interesting.

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Posted: 12 August 2012 09:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Brian your little tricks of argument may be cute, but they are also duplicitous.  You said that no one on this thread could give a single idea to limit voter fraud.  I gave you a simgle idea to prevent some of the few instances of voter fraud that you could dig up.  I said nothing about making a RETROACTIVE law. That election is over.  The group that discovered it found that felons had voted. The article you cited had the headline saying that the number of felons that had voted could have put Franken in the lead.  However, the article did not indicate who the felons actually voted for. IMO, as I view Republican ideology as generally socially irresponsible, it is not a stretch of my imagination that some persons irresponsible enough to become felons would also be irresponsible enough to vote Republican.

As far as the homework assignment you gave me - Do it yourself.

Re: your argument about making murder retroactively legal, that is indeed absurd.  I could go the other direction with such an extreme absurdity.  We could make it illegal for anyone to vote unless they provide a passport and a DNA test.  We could make any discovered voter fraud punichable by the death penalty.  This would give your wealthy Republican friends a clear majority as they can easily afford passports and DNA testing and the lawyers to get them off if they ever happen to commit (or be accused of committing) voter fraud.

[ Edited: 12 August 2012 11:00 PM by TimB ]
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Posted: 12 August 2012 10:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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And as far as the other article citing minority voter participation being up since voter ID laws were initiated (in Georgia), it didn’t seem worth a response to me.  But since you think it is:

It is likely that minority voting was going to be up anyway because we now have a black President, which may have restored some members-of-minorities’ faith in the election process.  We have no way of knowing if it would have been up even more, without the voter ID laws. 

But granted, some small number of minority members who do have to struggle with issues related to getting an official picture ID, despite not needing it for anything else, may have been motivated to do whatever they needed to do to vote in order to counter the Jim Crow tactics by Republican interests.

The article also said nothing about whether the poor elderly vote was up or down, as this is another population who in some cases may not have or need picture IDs.

[ Edited: 12 August 2012 10:53 PM by TimB ]
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Posted: 12 August 2012 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Also, I don’t have a problem with criminals being punished in accordance with the harm they have caused to society.  I do have a problem with the inequities of our criminal justice system not punishing wealthy criminals who have caused as much or more harm to society, simply because they have the wealth to succeesfully navigate the system.

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Posted: 13 August 2012 03:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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TimB - 12 August 2012 10:48 PM

I do have a problem with the inequities of our criminal justice system not punishing wealthy criminals who have caused as much or more harm to society, simply because they have the wealth to succeesfully navigate the system.

This is what our system is about Tim.  The rich can buy their way out. So called “fairness” has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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Posted: 14 August 2012 01:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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mid atlantic - 13 August 2012 03:14 AM
TimB - 12 August 2012 10:48 PM

I do have a problem with the inequities of our criminal justice system not punishing wealthy criminals who have caused as much or more harm to society, simply because they have the wealth to succeesfully navigate the system.

This is what our system is about Tim.  The rich can buy their way out. So called “fairness” has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Be that as it may.  I still have a problem with it.

And back toward the topic of this thread, voter ID laws being pressed by Republicans aren’t their only politically motivate tactics designed to give their side an advantage in the vote.

For example, in Ohio early voting hours have been limited in Democratic counties while being expanded in Republican counties.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/10/670441/ohio-limits-early-voting-hours-in-democratic-counties-expands-in-republican-counties/

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Posted: 15 August 2012 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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asanta - 12 August 2012 02:54 PM

...in Texas, you can use your NRA card as legal ID, but not your University Student ID.. confused

The NRA?  I highly doubt the state of Texas accepts a private club’s membership card as a valid form of ID in order to vote.  They might accept a state-issued concealed carry permit.  Big difference between the two. 

As for not accepting a school-issued ID, just off the top of my head (and I am speculating), the following is a likely reason: 

Not only is a Texas carry license uniform throughout the state, unlike a dozen or so myriad school IDs, but more importantly, a Google search of Texas’ carry license shows that they list the holder’s home address, just like my state’s carry license.  Perhaps not all school IDs have home addresses, as they are intended primarily for use on campus and would have no need for a home address.  When you go to vote, they match your name and address and mark it off the list once you vote.  Texas’ carry license allows for this.  Perhaps not all school IDs do. 

It’s not a conspiracy.  Occam’s razor suggests my hypothesis to be much more likely.

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Posted: 15 August 2012 04:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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Rocinante - 15 August 2012 04:20 PM
asanta - 12 August 2012 02:54 PM

...in Texas, you can use your NRA card as legal ID, but not your University Student ID.. confused

The NRA?  I highly doubt the state of Texas accepts a private club’s membership card as a valid form of ID in order to vote.  They might accept a state-issued concealed carry permit.  Big difference between the two. 

As for not accepting a school-issued ID, just off the top of my head (and I am speculating), the following is a likely reason: 

Not only is a Texas carry license uniform throughout the state, unlike a dozen or so myriad school IDs, but more importantly, a Google search of Texas’ carry license shows that they list the holder’s home address, just like my state’s carry license.  Perhaps not all school IDs have home addresses, as they are intended primarily for use on campus and would have no need for a home address.  When you go to vote, they match your name and address and mark it off the list once you vote.  Texas’ carry license allows for this.  Perhaps not all school IDs do. 

It’s not a conspiracy.  Occam’s razor suggests my hypothesis to be much more likely.

You are correct about the Texas law providing for Concealed Carry ID to vote.  Also the Dept of Justice has taken the case to court and the law is not yet in effect. Those supporting the law hope to get it through the legal proceedings prior to the November election.

In re: to it being a “conspiracy”, it is not something that you will read about in the National Enquirer, next to the headlines “Bat Boy Attacks Bigfoot” but certainly persons, predominantly Republicans, are conspiring to get this law in effect, and persons, predominantly Democrats are conspiring to prevent it.  So are these types of laws politically motivated?  Of course they are.

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Posted: 15 August 2012 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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TimB - 15 August 2012 04:50 PM

In re: to it being a “conspiracy”, it is not something that you will read about in the National Enquirer, next to the headlines “Bat Boy Attacks Bigfoot”...

But Democrats will accept, and carry, the Bigfoot-vote and the Bat-Boy-Vote along with their usual Zombie-Vote! grin And Bigfoot can bring any made-up ID he wants - or none!  Democrats don’t care if the ID is valid or non-existent, as long as they get the votes.  That’s what the whole hubbub is really all about.

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Posted: 15 August 2012 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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Rocinante - 15 August 2012 05:07 PM
TimB - 15 August 2012 04:50 PM

In re: to it being a “conspiracy”, it is not something that you will read about in the National Enquirer, next to the headlines “Bat Boy Attacks Bigfoot”...

But Democrats will accept, and carry, the Bigfoot-vote and the Bat-Boy-Vote along with their usual Zombie-Vote! grin And Bigfoot can bring any made-up ID he wants - or none!  Democrats don’t care if the ID is valid or non-existent, as long as they get the votes.  That’s what the whole hubbub is really all about.

The entire cast of The Walking Dead could vote Democratic in Texas and it wouldn’t change most elections here, as there are so many brain-dead (as in non-critical thinking) Republicans here. In Texas the Republicans are solidly in control and they intend to stay that way, changing demographics be damned. (How do you think we have kept a dufus like Rick Perry as Governor for so long?)

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Posted: 15 August 2012 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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By the way the link you cited is an article that says there are 2 million dead people on voter rolls.  The article espouses that this COULD be a problem for EITHER party.  But your assertion directly implies that Democrats are committing “zombie votes” and that Democrats, exclusively, are doing this.  The linked article does not support either contention.

You have learned the lessons of obfuscation well, from the minions of your 1% overlords.

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Posted: 30 August 2012 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Bit of an update about such a law in Texas…

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/08/30/us/politics/ap-us-texas-voter-id-.html?_r=1&hp;

Take care,

Derek

[ Edited: 30 August 2012 11:38 AM by harry canyon ]
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