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Omnivore Furgivore ...
Posted: 17 July 2012 03:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Thanks for flagging that, Asanta.

Wow, just saw an article about some linguistic researchers studying how people unconsciously replace the word that doesn’t fit with one that does.  Their example was “Where should survivors of an aircraft be buried?”  People who answer this mentally replaced “survivors” with “victims” because that’s rational rather than strange.  Similarly, I unconsciously replaced “attractive” with “unattractive” because I couldn’t envision anyone seeing the killing of an animal as “attractive”. 

Yes, disturbing and weird.  sick

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Posted: 17 July 2012 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Anyone who has killed an animal or seen it happen would not find it attractive. In 1967 I hit a dog that ran in front if my car so fast I couldn’t swerve in time. It screamed as it died on the road. That was 45 years ago and I still vividly remember the incident. Definitely not attractive.

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Posted: 17 July 2012 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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George - 17 July 2012 05:43 AM
Thevillageatheist - 17 July 2012 05:06 AM

Lifestyle seems to be the biggest determiner in what you eat and George is the first human I’ve run into who doesn’t like meat for the taste.

It’s not so much the taste, Jack, that disgusts me as is the idea of eating an animal. I am not really sure why I feel that way. People may fool themselves by calling a dead cow “beef” and a dead pig “pork,” but I could never do it.

Question is, do you view an egg as a chicken?.... smile

I like meat but not for it’s own sake. I rarely eat a steak. But I do cut up small pieces of pork or chicken into my stir fry of veggies. It adds a flavor and texture which cannot be duplicared by substitutes.  I also like soy burgers when prepared right.
So call me a scavenger, I eat what’s available.

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Posted: 17 July 2012 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 17 July 2012 04:18 PM

Anyone who has killed an animal or seen it happen would not find it attractive. In 1967 I hit a dog that ran in front if my car so fast I couldn’t swerve in time. It screamed as it died on the road. That was 45 years ago and I still vividly remember the incident. Definitely not attractive.

Cap’t Jack

That’s not what I’m talking about.

FWIW, I have killed many, many animals, accidentally and while hunting; if we include insects, then I kill animals every single day. Only the accidental deaths bothered me, however I didn’t lose any sleep over it.  There is a satisfaction found in being a predator, and seeing how the biosphere actually is in meatspace.

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Posted: 17 July 2012 06:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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FWIW, I have killed many, many animals, accidentally and while hunting; if we include insects, then I kill animals every single day. Only the accidental deaths bothered me, however I didn’t lose any sleep over it.  There is a satisfaction found in being a predator, and seeing how the biosphere actually is in meatspace.

So have I, small game mostly,  rabbits and birds never deer although they are as common around here as dogs. I don’t include insects as they don’t seem to bother me at all and I have never actively hunted them. Hunting gave me an excuse to walk in the woods as a predator but that wore off so now I just enjoy the scenery. I found that killing animals never really gave me any satisfaction except for the meat. I found that I don’t like arbitrarily taking life. It’s disturbing. Like running over the dog. Never lost sleep over it but it haunts my memory.


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Posted: 17 July 2012 09:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Like running over the dog. Never lost sleep over it but it haunts my memory.


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I hear you, I wouldn’t like accidentally hitting somebody’s dog either.

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Posted: 18 July 2012 12:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Oh, we have saved cats from drowning, nursed sick and wounded dogs back to life. It is demanded by our mirror response system.
In the case of eating meat, IMO, we have learned to accept this as a survival technique. “It sustains us” and is a choice of need.

OTOH, my then 8 year old neutered tomcat (Orange) adopted a three week old pure black kitten (runt) which had drowned and my wife spent 500 at the vet who saved the kitten with oxygen and intravenous intervention.
When we brought the kitten home with us, Orange immediately laid down beside it and started grooming. He patiently let the kitten suckle on his belly hair, while grooming it in a very maternal loving way. It was a remarkable display of sympathetic behavior, especially in cats, a male at that.
Today, 5 years later, BlackJack is a miniature black panther, his incisors visible even with closed mouth, cold yellow eyes staring into your very soul, lying in the arms of 13 year old Big Brother, after thoroughly grooming each other. My mirror neurons also respond to such display of love with awe and delight.
My German Shephert, Odin, died in my arms when euthanizing him. I assured him my love over and over, long after he had died.

My personal ethics allow for humans to have the right to live as hunter or as gatherer as need dictates. But I am completely opposed to killing for sport. Its wasteful and criminal. It is violent and upsets the balance.
For every action there is an equal opposite reaction. In the whole universe! Cause/Effect. It is woven into the fabric, the fundamental structure of the cosmos and an aspect of the wholeness (singularity) of the Cosmos.

But I do firmly believe in the function of Mirror neurons in the brains of several highly intelligent species. The ability to “experience” the situation of another at a distance. A baby’s smile is irresistible, all forms of helpless life elicits our sympathies.  It is fundamental and causal to our innate ability to love and this ability is expressed throughout nature and especially in the high intelligence species..  On a darker side, the mind without a proper mirror reponse due to a malfunction of these neurons is not restricted by the sympathetic response of experiencing the pain or discomfort felt by the “subject”. This is how natural predators can kill wihtout emotion or mercy.

In the case of eating meat vs slaughtering living animals, IMO it has become compartmentalized, we have seperated the connection, by prepackaging bits and pieces in sterile frozen containers.  In a country butcher you stand there as the butcher slices you particular choice from the carcass, dripping with blood, knife and hand soaked with blood. You know what it is you are about to ingest. But it is food, sustenance. Eating grubs may seem repulsive to us, but to some African tribes grubs are a delicacy.

[ Edited: 18 July 2012 12:40 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 July 2012 04:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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My personal ethics allow for humans to have the right to live as hunter or as gatherer as need dictates. But I am completely opposed to killing for sport. Its wasteful and criminal. It is violent and upsets the balance.
For every action there is an equal opposite reaction. In the whole universe! Cause/Effect. It is woven into the fabric, the fundamental structure of the cosmos and an aspect of the wholeness (singularity) of the Cosmos.


The good news here is that fewer and fewer people are hunting as we urbanize. This has made the need to augment our diets with meat redundant. Even grocery stores now carry some wild game. Since it’s now devolved to become a sport only a small segment of the population here still actively hunt and we are mainly rural. I’ve noticed that in the last 30 years the raptors have returned. In the 60’s you never saw a hawk or buzzard. Now they’re everywhere. We have a pair of red tails in the woods behind our house. That means an abundance of small game. The deer herds are larger and hazardous on the roads. And the big cats are coming back. In my hometown across the river there have been several panther sightings and these animals haven’t been seen here since the beginning of the last century. Dogs have been killed, but no people. BTW I never killed just for sport. We ate every animal. My grandmother, born and raised on a farm could fry the most delicious rabbit done southern style and therefore not the least bit good for you!
We also had many pets, especially dogs. We became closely attached to two, a Pom named Sasha and a Keshond, named Tassie. Sasha lived to 18 and Tass to14. We’ll never forget them. Tass was my favorite. It killed us when they died and I vowed never to have another pet. We keep our daughter’s dog when they are away but that’s it. don’t know about the cosmos but it sure as hell made me sad.


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Posted: 18 July 2012 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 18 July 2012 04:30 AM

My personal ethics allow for humans to have the right to live as hunter or as gatherer as need dictates. But I am completely opposed to killing for sport. Its wasteful and criminal. It is violent and upsets the balance.
For every action there is an equal opposite reaction. In the whole universe! Cause/Effect. It is woven into the fabric, the fundamental structure of the cosmos and an aspect of the wholeness (singularity) of the Cosmos.


The good news here is that fewer and fewer people are hunting as we urbanize. This has made the need to augment our diets with meat redundant. Even grocery stores now carry some wild game. Since it’s now devolved to become a sport only a small segment of the population here still actively hunt and we are mainly rural. I’ve noticed that in the last 30 years the raptors have returned. In the 60’s you never saw a hawk or buzzard. Now they’re everywhere. We have a pair of red tails in the woods behind our house. That means an abundance of small game. The deer herds are larger and hazardous on the roads. And the big cats are coming back. In my hometown across the river there have been several panther sightings and these animals haven’t been seen here since the beginning of the last century. Dogs have been killed, but no people. BTW I never killed just for sport. We ate every animal. My grandmother, born and raised on a farm could fry the most delicious rabbit done southern style and therefore not the least bit good for you!
We also had many pets, especially dogs. We became closely attached to two, a Pom named Sasha and a Keshond, named Tassie. Sasha lived to 18 and Tass to14. We’ll never forget them. Tass was my favorite. It killed us when they died and I vowed never to have another pet. We keep our daughter’s dog when they are away but that’s it. don’t know about the cosmos but it sure as hell made me sad.
Cap’t Jack

I live in No. Idaho (hunting country), we used to collect discarded deer pelts from the dumpsters and make moccasins, the traditional brain tanned way, from pure white ceremonial baby moccasins to smoked calfhighs. Won a blue ribbon at a large indian fair. The labor is torture but the results are magical. I felt well rewarded with the recognition and the sale of a few moccasins and whole tanned hides.
Most people here hunt for winter stocking. But hunting fenced buffalo from a truck seems a little depraved to me, even if there will be buffalo steak on the table that night.

[ Edited: 18 July 2012 05:21 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 July 2012 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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I live in No. Idaho (hunting country), we used to collect discarded deer pelts from the dumpsters and make moccasins, the traditional brain tanned way, from pure white ceremonial baby moccasins to smoked calfhighs. Won a blue ribbon at a large indian fair. The labor is torture but the results are magical. I felt well rewarded with the recognition and the sale of a few moccasins and whole tanned hides.
Most people here hunt for winter stocking. But hunting fenced buffalo from a truck seems a little depraved to me, even if there will be buffalo steak on the table that night.

I never killed a deer but have skinned several for the hides and did brain tan them. Afterwards we smoked the hides for that golden color. Never made moccasins except for one pair but have done the beadwork on them. I worked in seed beads making gourd rattles and fans. A Micmac taught me carving also. I’ve done a few Iroquois and Cherokee masks in miniature as well as Buffalo carvings that I traded for other pieces. One friend, a Hopi-Zuni carved a Katchina for our son and I traded a buffalo carving for it. Mainly worked in buckeye wood, real creamy and infused with black. It’s a beautiful wood. I learned some patterns from the Qualla Cherokee in NC. Now I only work on wampum treaty belts and just finished one patterned after the Miami belt from 1796 after the Fallen Timbers battle. I did one for the Fort Pitt museum and presented it for their Ed. Program there. It’s the William Penn treaty Lenape belt. That one took a while! I’m presently working on a Cherokee Kituwah belt. Once again, keeps me sane!


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Posted: 18 July 2012 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Most people here hunt for winter stocking. But hunting fenced buffalo from a truck seems a little depraved to me, even if there will be buffalo steak on the table that night.


And no matter how you spin it, that ain’t hunting! That’s how our ancestors killed the teeming millions in two herds down to 34. They shot them from moving trains sponsored by European nobility and the robber barons. Buffalo meat does taste really good though. It’s like buttah!

 

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Posted: 18 July 2012 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I find it interesting that the act of killing another animal can be given so many different kinds of meaning depending on the intention and the context. Call it hunting and it gives some people a sense of satisfaction, power, excitement, belonging to a “web of life,” or other positive feelings. Other people see the same behavior as wasteful or criminal if done for sport, though perhaps justifiable if not noble when done for food. And how it is done seems to make a difference for most people, how “sproting” it is and th impact on the species as well as the individual animals.

Accidentally killing an animal is disturbing to some, even those who see hunting as a positive experience. Yet some people view such accidents as morally neutral, since there is no intent at all by definition.

And I’d be willing to bet I’ve probably killed a lot more anmals than even most hunters in the course of my work, but because that is done to relieve suffering (mostly, though there economics and other factors definately play a role in such decisions) most see it as a positive thing (though I have had some very religious individuals claim it was a terrible moral crime). And yet, I don’t eat meat.

Just an example of the complicated and subjective way we assign moral or ethical significance to behavior. People sure are weird! grin

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Posted: 18 July 2012 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I think we shouldn’t produce unnecessary suffering, and kill animals only for food or for really necessary research.
I also think that we should reduce our “burger intake” and generally eat more healthy.

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Posted: 18 July 2012 08:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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But hunting fenced buffalo from a truck seems a little depraved to me, even if there will be buffalo steak on the table that night.

That is depraved, the animal should have the chance to run or fight back.

Fight or flight is a response found in all mammals if I’m not mistaken.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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mckenzievmd - 18 July 2012 03:23 PM

I find it interesting that the act of killing another animal can be given so many different kinds of meaning depending on the intention and the context. Call it hunting and it gives some people a sense of satisfaction, power, excitement, belonging to a “web of life,” or other positive feelings. Other people see the same behavior as wasteful or criminal if done for sport, though perhaps justifiable if not noble when done for food. And how it is done seems to make a difference for most people, how “sproting” it is and th impact on the species as well as the individual animals.

Accidentally killing an animal is disturbing to some, even those who see hunting as a positive experience. Yet some people view such accidents as morally neutral, since there is no intent at all by definition.

And I’d be willing to bet I’ve probably killed a lot more anmals than even most hunters in the course of my work, but because that is done to relieve suffering (mostly, though there economics and other factors definately play a role in such decisions) most see it as a positive thing (though I have had some very religious individuals claim it was a terrible moral crime). And yet, I don’t eat meat.

Just an example of the complicated and subjective way we assign moral or ethical significance to behavior. People sure are weird! grin

Indeed. But once you realize that our moralization is just a post hoc story justifying our nature (probably to persuade others that we are better than the others and to bring them to our side), things begin to make sense. Mike likes to kill animals and you don’t. There is really not much more to it. You will both look for reasons why your side is the logical one and in the end call it the morally right one.

[ Edited: 19 July 2012 06:33 AM by George ]
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