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Posted: 17 May 2013 10:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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Part of what you see is an illusion, because the brain has to make an educated guess regarding how to construct the image that you “see” via the information your eyes take in. This is because each eye has a blind spot at the area of the retina where the optic nerve leads back to the brain. usually, one eye is always able to compensate for the other, and since what you “see” is really a composite of what both eyes are seeing, even if one blind spot prevents you from seeing something, the other eye will see it, and the brain will process this into the image.

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Posted: 18 May 2013 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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LogicMan - 17 May 2013 10:51 PM

Part of what you see is an illusion, because the brain has to make an educated guess regarding how to construct the image that you “see” via the information your eyes take in. This is because each eye has a blind spot at the area of the retina where the optic nerve leads back to the brain. usually, one eye is always able to compensate for the other, and since what you “see” is really a composite of what both eyes are seeing, even if one blind spot prevents you from seeing something, the other eye will see it, and the brain will process this into the image.

True, but we can also be educated to understand that what we see and how we interpret it, especially at first sight, is often completely off the mark.  It can take a lifetime of personal experimentation and study to realize the extent of this phenomenon and how easily we can be misled into “seeing” what is not there and being blind to what is. 

Lois

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Posted: 18 May 2013 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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TimB - 15 May 2013 05:00 AM

Just about everyone can see Optical illusions.  Not everyone sees, hears, etc., hallucinations.  Delusions are also in another class, as they have to do with beliefs and feeling that those beliefs are true despite evidence (that others can easily identify) that the beliefs are unfounded.  (I think that religious beliefs sometimes approach delusionality, but these are so ingrained in our society that they are typically not considered to be delusions.)


I could think of a few more processes that fit that definition of “delusion”(mass delusion as measured by background acceptability rate(ingrained))
I think under those parameters-it’s not delusion.  Religion is not delusion.  It’s quite normal…unfortunately.

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Posted: 18 May 2013 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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VYAZMA - 18 May 2013 01:03 PM
TimB - 15 May 2013 05:00 AM

Just about everyone can see Optical illusions.  Not everyone sees, hears, etc., hallucinations.  Delusions are also in another class, as they have to do with beliefs and feeling that those beliefs are true despite evidence (that others can easily identify) that the beliefs are unfounded.  (I think that religious beliefs sometimes approach delusionality, but these are so ingrained in our society that they are typically not considered to be delusions.)


I could think of a few more processes that fit that definition of “delusion”(mass delusion as measured by background acceptability rate(ingrained))
I think under those parameters-it’s not delusion.  Religion is not delusion.  It’s quite normal…unfortunately.

You may be right. i.e., If enough people share the intense belief that something is true (despite all practical evidence to the contrary) it is not considered to be a delusion. Also, a typical schizophrenic-like delusion, could pop up seemingly out of nowhere, presumably because of some immediate neurochemical dysfunction or alteration.  Whereas, religious beliefs and interpretations are generally learned more over time.  Although, some more discrete “religious experiences” may have more in common with a schizophrenic-like delusional experience. But such experiences would not typically be problematic for an individual if he was in a community that accepted it as “real”.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 18 May 2013 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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VYAZMA - 18 May 2013 01:03 PM
TimB - 15 May 2013 05:00 AM

Just about everyone can see Optical illusions.  Not everyone sees, hears, etc., hallucinations.  Delusions are also in another class, as they have to do with beliefs and feeling that those beliefs are true despite evidence (that others can easily identify) that the beliefs are unfounded.  (I think that religious beliefs sometimes approach delusionality, but these are so ingrained in our society that they are typically not considered to be delusions.)


I could think of a few more processes that fit that definition of “delusion”(mass delusion as measured by background acceptability rate(ingrained))
I think under those parameters-it’s not delusion.  Religion is not delusion.  It’s quite normal…unfortunately.

Religious ecstasy may not be delusional but it is a very dangerous “mental contagion”.
I have seen mob hysteria and mob flight (stampede), the mob actually becomes a mindless organisms, trampling anything in its way, including each other.

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Posted: 18 May 2013 11:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Yes TimB and Write, I agree.  Religion based delusions are common enough.  Guys who think they are jesus for example…really think they are jesus and end up hurting people or at least acting irrational.

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Posted: 18 May 2013 11:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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VYAZMA - 18 May 2013 11:27 PM

Yes TimB and Write, I agree.  Religion based delusions are common enough.  Guys who think they are jesus for example…really think they are jesus and end up hurting people or at least acting irrational.

I believe there are several examples of “cults” committing mass suicide or provoke a confrontation with the “evil government”. Jim Jones was a perfect example, but there are plenty more.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 12:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Question just came to mind:

We know those who committed suicide believed they would go to heaven.  I wonder how many religious people would also believe these people went to heaven? I’m sure of at least one religion which promises entrance by killing yourself along with a bunch of other innocent bystanders as long as it is not specifically forbidden. Perhaps some other tribal warrior religions may,  Japan and China did also, until outlawed.
But would any sane person even entertain the thought?  I call it delusional.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 01:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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no-thing smarter than you exists !!
no-thing invisible to you exists !!
no-thing that can manipulate your mind exists !!

distinctly delusional !!


human - a robotic construct that does not question the inception of its own thought or feelings !!

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Atheism - The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason,  creating everything which magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs.  Makes perfect sense.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 02:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Gordon - 19 May 2013 01:20 AM

no-thing smarter than you exists !!

False equivalence. It can be demonstrated that there are people smarter than I.

no-thing invisible to you exists !!

Again, false. It can be demonstrated that things invisible to my own senses can be visibly recorded.

no-thing that can manipulate your mind exists !!

Huh? Everything I experience manipulates my mind.

distinctly delusional !!

Your scenario works only if you were stranded on a deserted island for 50 years, without communication.
You are speaking of any subjective experience. But you ignore the potential power of ‘knowledge’. 

human - a robotic construct that does not question the inception of its own thought or feelings !!

Human - a living organism that is learning how to formulate the questions of those things which lie beyond it’s direct experience (event horizon)

But anyone who claims that, contrary to science, they can see beyond the ‘event horizon’ better that another is indeed delusional.

[ Edited: 19 May 2013 02:43 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 19 May 2013 02:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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if we cannot see and hear the same .... does that make me blind and deaf ??

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Atheism - The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason,  creating everything which magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs.  Makes perfect sense.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 03:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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Gordon - 19 May 2013 02:58 AM

if we cannot see and hear the same .... does that make me blind and deaf ??

No, it merely establishes a relationship. We approximate everything anyway. Our senses are mediocre at best. Our only great asset is our brain (as it is in many species).
It is not a matter of blind or deaf, it is a matter of degree. No one sees red exactly the same, but we generally agree that once we know its name we can recognize it and share the experience of a beautifully red rose.
Classical music may be boring to a rocker, but to a classical musician rock may be a continuous screech of electronic distortions.

These are subjective experiences, unique to each individual, evoking uniquely different emotions and (re)actions. What we need to do is promote tolerance of differences in viewpoints and not insist that what we see is how everyone must see it. That is impossible, aside from being hubris.

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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 19 May 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Gordon - 19 May 2013 01:20 AM

no-thing smarter than you exists !!
no-thing invisible to you exists !!
no-thing that can manipulate your mind exists !!

distinctly delusional !!


human - a robotic construct that does not question the inception of its own thought or feelings !!

I am not sure what you’re ranting about here.  But thanks for keeping it concise.  Your definition of “human” is flawed, I think. e.g., I have taken part in threads on this forum where the “inception of our thoughts and feelings” have been part of the discussion.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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Gordon - 19 May 2013 02:58 AM

if we cannot see and hear the same .... does that make me blind and deaf ??

Of course not. e.g., There are people called synesthetes, who have crossovers in some of their modes of sensory perceptions.  They percieve some things very differently from almost all other people.  As long as this sensory crossover does not interfere with their ability to relate to others or to function in typical settings, I think that it could conceivably even give them an advantage in some ways.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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Just ignore this guy!!!  Don’t feed him!!

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