2 of 13
2
In search of WILLPOWER—I am here to inquire: Is it a real power?
Posted: 26 July 2012 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

I glad you like it.  grin

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  193
Joined  2011-12-30
Thevillageatheist - 26 July 2012 05:58 AM

Here’s some info I found on the objective ministries site that may further clarify the Rev’s position George. I mean baby Jesus started the whole thing didn’t he? He transmogrified! ...

The Role Of The Baby Jesus In The Trinity—Baby and God…. Many a potential Saved person has been lost for lack of proper focus on the Baby Jesus.
... Is that so much to ask for Salvation?

I’m convinced coo coo! Cap’t Jack

  “Baby and God.” ?  Hmmmmmmm!

Cap’t J, thanks for bringing this information to this thread and to the dialogue (I repeat: IMO, this is not a debate about who is right or who is wrong). As a unitheist (panentheist) and lover of evidence-based science, I am also intrigued by the process philosophy and theology of the great mathematician, Alfred North Whitehead—and other scientists who have studied theology—the only words that make any sense to me in your quote are “Baby and God”. But, for me, the noun ‘God’ is obsolete, because it suggests a human-like being with dimensions, which I have not accepted as “The Truth” since I studied early-high-school science. 

BABIES AND G~0~D/G~O~D
========================
IMO, the god-hypothesis, or theory, is just that, a theory, which World Book D defines as, “something assumed because it seems likely to be a true explanation”.And, of course, a lot of people—including many well-educated and sophisticated ones—already feel they have.  Me? Of course, with all the help I can get, I am looking for one that at least satisfies me.  xxxxxxxx at the ~0~ point, the point of conception we all begin as a G~0~D xxxxxxx(I’m still thinking).

[ Edited: 26 July 2012 06:46 PM by RevLGKing ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
RevLGKing - 26 July 2012 09:58 AM

As a unitheist (panentheist) and lover of evidence-based science

Are you a unitheist because you believe there is an evidence-based science to support such position?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1398
Joined  2010-04-22
RevLGKing - 25 July 2012 03:45 PM
TromboneAndrew - 25 July 2012 08:28 AM

To me, willpower is what people refer to when we have conflicting desires, and the desire for something that is more healthy wins out over something that is less.

Tom, go on.

Um, how? Is that statement incomplete?

I disagree that we can freely choose what emotions to feel - to some extent this is true, but not universally.

If you mean to say that you feel that the fields of psychology and pneumatology—and there are several psychological and pneumatological schools—are not exact and hard sciences, I agree with you. But I choose (i.e., I will) not to ignore them. Then you add:

I don’t choose to feel fear when I see a car barreling directly toward me, but I can choose to dwell in fuming anger or forgiveness afterwards.

In choosing (willing) to do the latter, IMO, you are expressing yourself, pneumatologically—an approach to understanding and effectively dealing with the pain and suffering associated with our being human beings, which I feel is unfortunately overlooked.

My definition of a pneumatological pain: It is any serious pain that we knowingly, consciously and regularly choose to inflict on ourselves and often wonder why. Do not addicts—physical, mental and spiritual ones—do it all the time?

No, I do not think that there is any external spirit which motivates me. Some emotions are uncontrollable, and some are; that’s just how the brain works. I think that dividing controlled and uncontrolled emotions into two separate, distinct entities (brain vs. spirit) is a mistake and that there’s no good reason to do so, discounting historical myth, of course.

You also seem to be saying that pneumatology (study of the external spirit?) is the source of empathy - obviosuly I disagree here, too. But empathy is one of the controllable emotions that we have - at least, semi-controllable. Everyone except sociopaths, that is. So at least we have a bit of agreement in effect but not in categorization.

[ Edited: 26 July 2012 10:51 AM by TromboneAndrew ]
 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1191
Joined  2011-08-01

So far this has led us to build on a holistic foundation and to approach life seeking the good and positive integration of body, mind and spirit—what I like to call the soma, psyche and pneuma. None of this is laid on as dogma.

But it is dogma. The mind is simply part of the body and there is zero evidence for the existence of anything like a “spirit” or pneuma. So your most basic premise is in fact dogma. That’s the point where you lose most rationalists.

 Signature 

Free in Kentucky
—Humanist
“I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it.”—Edith Sitwell

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  193
Joined  2011-12-30
George - 26 July 2012 10:16 AM
RevLGKing - 26 July 2012 09:58 AM

As a unitheist (panentheist) and lover of evidence-based science

Are you a unitheist because you believe there is an evidence-based science to support such position?

George, I assume that you are an atheist. Are you?

Me? I thank G~0~O~D for self-evident WILLpower. As a unitheist—without having to believe—I experience this power. It is as self-evident as our next breath, our desire for food and water. It is as self-evident as the cosmos—the UNIT we call existence.  Only fools (I hope there are none here)—ones inflicted with a blind kind of faith—would reject the opportunity to have this gift and the freedom WILLpower can bring.

It should be common knowledge that this evidence-based kind of faith is embraced by all thinkers, including
CLERGY SCIENTISTS
http://www.ordainedscientists.org/

http://www.ordainedscientists.org/articles/science-and-future-of-theology.html

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4845
Joined  2007-10-05

What you are ignoring, Rev, is that 93 percent of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not believe in a god. Interestingly, 99 percent of the prison population in the U.S. does hold such a belief.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
RevLGKing - 26 July 2012 01:42 PM
George - 26 July 2012 10:16 AM
RevLGKing - 26 July 2012 09:58 AM

As a unitheist (panentheist) and lover of evidence-based science

Are you a unitheist because you believe there is an evidence-based science to support such position?

George, I assume that you are an atheist. Are you?

Me? I thank G~0~O~D for self-evident WILLpower. As a unitheist—without having to believe—I experience this power. It is as self-evident as our next breath, our desire for food and water. It is as self-evident as the cosmos—the UNIT we call existence.  Only fools (I hope there are none here)—ones inflicted with a blind kind of faith—would reject the opportunity to have this gift and the freedom WILLpower can bring.

It should be common knowledge that this evidence-based kind of faith is embraced by all thinkers, including
CLERGY SCIENTISTS
http://www.ordainedscientists.org/

http://www.ordainedscientists.org/articles/science-and-future-of-theology.html

I didn’t ask you if it (whatever it is you believe in) was self-evident. I asked you if you base your faith on evidence-based science. Do you? Please speak clearly.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  193
Joined  2011-12-30
FreeInKy - 26 July 2012 10:52 AM

So far this has led us to build on a holistic foundation and to approach life seeking the good and positive integration of body, mind and spirit—what I like to call the soma, psyche and pneuma. None of this is laid on as dogma.

But it is dogma. The mind is simply part of the body and there is zero evidence for the existence of anything like a “spirit” or pneuma. So your most basic premise is in fact dogma. That’s the point where you lose most rationalists.

It is dogma? FIK, if that is what you will to believe, it is your WILL, not mine.
====================
Me? Of course, with all the help I can get, I am looking for one ( a theory, and explanation)  that at least satisfies me.

My explanation, including my opinion, is that at the ~0~ point—the point of human conception—life for me (number 7 of 8) began with the uniting of my father’s sperm (12 chromosomes) with my mothers ovum (12 chromosomes). Thus I was created as a single-celled being—1/3000th. of an inch diameter.

Each of us, including Jesus I believe, began this way. Thus, with all the genes and memes, of all that I had ever been, I began. One and one half year later, the same process began when the last in the family, my sister was conceived. She and I began life on Earth as G~0~D-like children. So do we all.

Eventually, if we survive, we moved on to self-awareness (about 3-5).

I remember, vividly, when I first became aware that I was aware. This vivid memory was probably caused by the shock of my experiencing the early deaths of my oldest brother and sister. I also have memories of them alive. Many in those days— including the husband and children of my sister—were killed by TB. So was our mother. Devastating for those of us who survived.

Moving on. Then I moved to the stage of feeling personally responsible for keeping the moral laws, which Jews call bat (girls) or bar (boys) mitsvah—sons and daughters of the moral laws.  From then on we are at the ~O~ point—with the freedom to WILL and to be more and more in tune with the infinite—G~O~D.  I know so choose, OK?

[ Edited: 26 July 2012 07:46 PM by RevLGKing ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 04:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

As a determinist I believe that there is no such thing as willpower.  Our behavior is determined by a combination of our training and our physical drives.  For a variety of reasons we will assign whichever action occurs a rating in terms of “willpower”.  However, it’s still a meaningless or at least misdefined term.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

Open your heart, Occam, and let your pneuma discover the real truth. Once it reaches the quantum level of self awareness where your consciousness touches the Devine Power (I call it the ~boomba-hoomba~), your real self located in your liver (according to James Folcan, 1802-1899) will be allowed to WILL the impossible.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4845
Joined  2007-10-05
Occam. - 26 July 2012 04:08 PM

As a determinist I believe that there is no such thing as willpower.  Our behavior is determined by a combination of our training and our physical drives.  For a variety of reasons we will assign whichever action occurs a rating in terms of “willpower”.  However, it’s still a meaningless or at least misdefined term.

Occam

I agree. I read the article RevGLK linked, and it was at least comprehensible. I’d like to see the original research before deciding on its merits, but at least the author wrote in direct English instead of dancing around and masking the points. RevGLK’s posts read like extended versions of the Deepak Chopra Random Quote Generator.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  I’ve opened my liver and let my lungs flow in.  I feel the quantum strings penetrating my spirit and guiding it toward the divine power of the nearest black hole.  How could I ever have survived had you not guided me, George?  LOL

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 09:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  193
Joined  2011-12-30
Occam. - 26 July 2012 04:08 PM

As a determinist I believe that there is no such thing as willpower. Our behavior is determined by a combination of our training and our physical drives….

Thanks, Occam. It is always helpful to know where people stand. BTW,my World Book D tells me that determinism is the doctrine that all events are determined by antecedent causes, agreed?

IS IT ALL ABOUT NATURE (heredity)  AND NURTURE (environment)?
Is determinism similar to behaviourism (J.B. Watson (1878-1958), and B.F. Skinner)—that the only worthwhile subject matter for psychology, in the scientific sense of the word, are the objective and physiological acts of people and animals. What about objectivism—the doctrine that holds that the only worthwhile things are those elements that are objective and external?

My parents were long gone before I went to university. It was my older siblings and wives, especially a much older brother and his good wife—all were from an uneducated and working-class background and not into books and the like—who helped raise my younger sister and me. There were 14, when we were all together—not a good environment for study. However, this extended family, was more than pleased that I did get go to university and did get settled into a good career.

However, supposing this had happened. Supposing—like some I actually knew, when I was in university, who did not do well—supposing I felt out of place, because of my working class background, became somewhat timid, was fearful of failure and was afraid to ask for help—and I did go through a dark valley, for time—a prof I consulted, helped greatly. Therefore, supposing I got behind in my work, flunked out and was forced to go back home in the hopes of getting a menial job and, in many way was still dependent on my brothers and wives who, by now, had their own family to raise.

Would I be justified in saying: Don’t blame me, folks, it is not my fault. Blame my heredity and my environment!

Sure I accept the important function of H & E. But I did not have to let this dominate me. Is it possible that it was my will and determination to think for myself, and not to fail, that made the difference between success and failure? Nature, yes! Nurture, yes! But, IMO, there is also spiriture. Pneumature?
You say

For a variety of reasons we will assign whichever action occurs a rating in terms of “willpower”.  However, it’s still a meaningless or at least misdefined term.

[ Edited: 26 July 2012 09:39 PM by RevLGKing ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 July 2012 11:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

BTW,my World Book D tells me that determinism is the doctrine that all events are determined by antecedent causes, agreed?

Correct. 

Would I be justified in saying: Don’t blame me, folks, it is not my fault. Blame my heredity and my environment!

  No, because your heredity and environment are not separate from you.  They are what makes up you, so you are responsible for your actions. 

But I did not have to let this dominate me. Is it possible that it was my will and determination to think for myself,

  Do you see that you are makeing the false dicnotomy between the H & E and you.  It’s all one.  Your will and determination are just parts of you formed and determined by your H&E.

IMO, there is also spiriture. Pneumature?

And in mine, spirit and pneuemature don’t exist but rather are make believe concepts we came up with in our own minds.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 13
2