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In search of WILLPOWER—I am here to inquire: Is it a real power?
Posted: 27 July 2012 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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RevLGKing - 26 July 2012 03:52 PM
FreeInKy - 26 July 2012 10:52 AM

So far this has led us to build on a holistic foundation and to approach life seeking the good and positive integration of body, mind and spirit—what I like to call the soma, psyche and pneuma. None of this is laid on as dogma.

But it is dogma. The mind is simply part of the body and there is zero evidence for the existence of anything like a “spirit” or pneuma. So your most basic premise is in fact dogma. That’s the point where you lose most rationalists.

It is dogma? FIK, if that is what you will to believe, it is your WILL, not mine.

It’s not about my “will to believe” or yours. It’s about what can be supported by evidence. And the evidence supports the scientific view that we are biological entities and nothing more. All your gobbledygook rambling changes none of that.

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“I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it.”—Edith Sitwell

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Posted: 27 July 2012 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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DarronS - 26 July 2012 01:50 PM

What you are ignoring, Rev, is that 93 percent of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not believe in a god.

I appreciate the information. Well, I WILL not to ignore it here and now. I suspect that the members of the NAS, who you mention, are simply coming to the same conclusion I did in my high school days (1943-1946). The vast majority of the NAS no longer believe in a god (theos, in Greek) with dimensions—a human-like, theistic and superhuman being—like the one in the “God Hypothesis” Richard Dawkins defines in his book, The GOD Delusion (2006).  On page 31 he writes what he assumes all theists believe

... there exists a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us.

Then, interestingly, he goes on to advocate an alternative view:

any creative intelligence, of sufficient complexity to design anything, comes into existence only as the end product of an extended process of gradual evolution.

—this is, by the way, is the kind of God Hypothesis suggested by process philosophy/theology (Alfred North Whitehead).

In retrospect, when I think back to that year of work (1946-1947) that followed my high-school student days, here is what comes to mind.
At the end of that year I had saved just over $500. I took the risk of earning the balance while I was at MTA. I did. 

Meanwhile, I did other jobs, but my minister—very pro-active in the whole community (50% Catholic) helped me get the better-paying job, in the mines. My older brother, and family, also encouraged me. He said: You do not need to pay us any room and board. Save everything you earn.

The goal was to get enough money to spend at least one year—the cost was $1000 (big money then) for tuition, room and board—at Mount Allison University in New Brunswick, Canada ... http://www.mta.ca  At the Time, NL, was a British colony. I was paid 58 cents an hour to be part of a rock-picking crew. We spent ten hours a day, six days a week working at a moving belt of iron-ore that went by us. It was a slave-like, mind-numbing kind of work.

However, the work was such that I could, to the foreman’s satisfaction, do the job and enter into what I now know was a trance-like—and now call a META-tative state—any time I willed to do so. In that state, I went over the life I had lived, so far, and, encouraged by my minister’s sermons, books I read and movies I saw at the time, in my mind I “wrote” stories about the life I envisioned that was ahead of me.

From then on, this good fortune—I served in the army, the navy, in church mission areas, etc—followed me and my future life-partner,  who I met on the way. With a small debt—paid by my new wife (1952), I was ordained in 1953, debt-free. Together, we went off to our full-time work. I “praught”—that is, preached—while she taught.

ABOUT http://WWW.FLFCANADA.COM http://www.flfcanada.com
In response to your comment

Interestingly, 99 percent of the prison population in the U.S. does hold such a belief.

may I add: Part of my pastoral duties in Toronto 1961-1994 involved founding and developing the volunteer-based Family Life Foundation (1973)—a registered charity. We charge no fees. As part of the FLF, I spent a lot of time with criminals. Without going into details here, it is my opinion that virtually all criminals are what I call, pneumatologically insane—one of the reasons they turn to a “god”.  I will now post this. Later, when I find it I will post a link about this idea.

[ Edited: 27 July 2012 12:48 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 27 July 2012 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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I agree that insanity is a large part of the god delusion.

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Posted: 27 July 2012 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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RevLGKing - 27 July 2012 12:43 PM

Without going into details here, it is my opinion that virtually all criminals are what I call, pneumatologically insane

Could be a result of some pneumatologically inappropriate food that have been consuming their whole life…(?). I wish we had an experienced pneumatologist here to ask his opinion.

[ Edited: 27 July 2012 01:00 PM by George ]
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Posted: 27 July 2012 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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It occurs to me that RevLGKing and several of us (including me) have a very wide gulf in how we describe our worldviews. This makes effective communication difficult.

It’s not that pneumatology (from how Rev King describes it) is totally bonkers, it’s just that it seems to me to be an outdated concept because we know a great deal more about how the brain and human beings work since the 19th century when the term was more in use. IMHO it’s not psychology, but neuroscience which makes the term obsolete. What researchers have been able to do with MRIs of the brain associated with specific tasks (which are possible while encased in the machine, at least) and how other researchers are able to frame very interseting questions to tease out how our brains process information, create and handle biases, and so on - is really cutting edge nowadays. I think that a lot of what Rev King thinks of as being in pneumatolgy is simply described better with modern research, and that’s what I’m more familiar with.

RevLGKing, if this sounds like anything you’d like to read up on, go to your local library and grab some issues of Scientific American Mind, an offshoot of the more well-known Scientific American. It’s a fantastic periodical, my current favorite, and good place to get a good gist of current neurological and psychological research.

On a separate but related note, IMHO eventually neuroscience in particular is going to be ‘discovered’ by the same fundamentalists that hate evolution and plate tectonics, and they’re going to find vast contradictions between the science and their bible-literalist worldviews. Then, we’ll see the exact same battles in schools over neuroscience that we’re currently seeing over evolution.

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Posted: 27 July 2012 01:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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George - 27 July 2012 12:56 PM
RevLGKing - 27 July 2012 12:43 PM

Without going into details here, it is my opinion that virtually all criminals are what I call, pneumatologically insane

Could be a result of some pneumatologically inappropriate food that have been consuming their whole life…(?). I wish we had an experienced pneumatologist here to ask his opinion.

Just give me a call, George. Or are you too poor to afford the phone call? Or, maybe you are afraid of me?  LOL

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Posted: 27 July 2012 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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A pneumatologically healthy individual:

michelin-man.jpg

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Posted: 27 July 2012 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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RevLGKing - 27 July 2012 01:29 PM

Or, maybe you are afraid of me?

Not afraid, just wary of you. I think you are insane. Not pneumatologically insane, just insane.

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Posted: 27 July 2012 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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TromboneAndrew - 27 July 2012 01:28 PM

It occurs to me that RevLGKing and several of us (including me) have a very wide gulf in how we describe our worldviews. This makes effective communication difficult.

TA, you are so right!

It’s not that pneumatology (from how Rev King describes it) is totally bonkers, it’s just that it seems to me to be an outdated concept because we know a great deal more about how the brain and human beings work since the 19th century when the term was more in use. IMHO it’s not psychology, but neuroscience which makes the term obsolete.

I will comment on this and the other quotes, tomorrow. Now I will simply thank you for taking all this time to have a dialogue about things that really matter, to all of us.
Note the CBC broadcast I have heard, more than once, below, okay?

What researchers have been able to do with MRIs of the brain associated with specific tasks (which are possible while encased in the machine, at least) and how other researchers are able to frame very interesting questions to tease out how our brains process information, create and handle biases, and so on - is really cutting edge nowadays.

I think that a lot of what Rev King thinks of as being in pneumatolgy is simply described better with modern research, and that’s what I’m more familiar with.

RevLGKing, if this sounds like anything you’d like to read up on, go to your local library and grab some issues of Scientific American Mind, an offshoot of the more well-known Scientific American. It’s a fantastic periodical, my current favorite, and good place to get a good gist of current neurological and psychological research.

On a separate but related note, IMHO eventually neuroscience in particular is going to be ‘discovered’ by the same fundamentalists that hate evolution and plate tectonics, and they’re going to find vast contradictions between the science and their bible-literalist worldviews. Then, we’ll see the exact same battles in schools over neuroscience that we’re currently seeing over evolution.

=======================
TA, the following was first broadcast on The Current, the CBC, Toronto, last January. I heard the summer- repeat just today
USING MRIs WE CAN NOW READ THE BRAIN

=======================
What if the government or anyone else could read your mind? Wait for it .. the potential is fast approaching. We are moving from the sci-fi on the silver screen to the reality on the MRI machine. The research and results are so advanced that at least one ethicist is already calling for protected privacy zones in our skulls.

Part Two of The Current

Mind Reading Technology

Over the years, Hollywood has had a lot of fun imagining what the world would be like if we could peer into each others’ brains and read each others’ thoughts. But now new research is showing that we are able to interpret brain activity accurately and reliably enough, that the idea of mind-reading doesn’t seem nearly as far fetched as it used to.

The Current’s Gord Westmacott has been looking into some of the research and he joined Anna Maria to tell us us more.

Here is the podcast:
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2012/01/04/mind-reading-technology/

[ Edited: 27 July 2012 09:13 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 27 July 2012 09:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Rev, dialogue is not a verb. Sheesh. If you’re going to tell us about people paying you to speechify you can at least use words correctly.  wink

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Posted: 27 July 2012 09:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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DarronS - 27 July 2012 09:08 PM

Rev, dialogue is not a verb. Sheesh. If you’re going to tell us about people paying you to speechify you can at least use words correctly.  wink

Unitheists love help—in the spirit of the Golden Rule, giving and receiving it: From my post as edited grin

Now I will simply thank you for taking all this time to have a dialogue about things that really matter, to all of us.

[ Edited: 28 July 2012 11:06 AM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 27 July 2012 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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A dialogue?  You really think you are having a dialogue here?

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Posted: 28 July 2012 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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George - 27 July 2012 10:10 PM

A dialogue?  You really think you are having a dialogue here?

BTW, Dr. George: About this question and the recent diagnosis   grin you gave me: This reminds me of something I forgot to tell you.  Awhile ago, I did consult a psychiatrist, Dr. Anon. I told him/her (H) that I was concerned about the state of my complexes. I told the doctor that I wasn’t sure if I had an inferiority complex, or a superiority one.

Dr. Anon told me that H only specialized in the inferiority complexes, and examined me accordingly. After several sessions, the doctor told me: I am happy to tell you the good news that you do not have a complex; you are inferior!

Naturally, I asked for a second opinion.

Okay, the good doctor said: “I suspect you do have a superiority complex. I will refer you to my colleague, Dr. Knowital.”

“What will I tell your colleague?

“Tell Dr. K that I suspect that you are also super-stupid.”
==============================

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Inferiority-and-Superiority-Complexes-84868.shtml  Interesting.

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Posted: 28 July 2012 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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George - 27 July 2012 01:36 PM
RevLGKing - 27 July 2012 01:29 PM

Or, maybe you are afraid of me?

Not afraid, just wary of you. I think you are insane. Not pneumatologically insane, just insane.

George, you have to be careful about diagnoses.  One has to recognize differential symptoms between insanity and senility.  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 28 July 2012 02:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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RevLGKing - 27 July 2012 09:05 PM
TromboneAndrew - 27 July 2012 01:28 PM

It occurs to me that RevLGKing and several of us (including me) have a very wide gulf in how we describe our worldviews. This makes effective communication difficult.

TA, you are so right!

It’s not that pneumatology (from how Rev King describes it) is totally bonkers, it’s just that it seems to me to be an outdated concept because we know a great deal more about how the brain and human beings work since the 19th century when the term was more in use.

Thanks at least for thinking of me as not being bonkers (crazy-mad). What evidence convinces you—BTW, are you and atheist?—that the concept of the spirit (pneuma) is outdated? Is the concept of mind also outdated? Besides music, do you have any other field of expertise? I love to paint—over 400 paintings out there. My daughter and her husband are both artists (just surviving) and live on a floating house they built near Tofino, BC, Canada. My son is

THE THEORY AND PRACTICE OF PNEUMATHERAPY—based on the great work of the great psychiatrist, Dr. Milton H. Erickson
The late M.H.Erickson, is acknowledged as the one who made hypnotism famous and acceptable in North America. He took the art of hypnosis—formerly called mesmerism, animal-magnetism, yogism, shamanism, voodism, religion-based faith-healing, whatever ... and made it part of the art of psycho-somatic medicine .

What about self-inflicted somatic and psychosomatic diseases?

To cover this category—which almost killed my daughter when she was seven and a half—I have concocted the term pneuma-psychosomatic. In 1964, with the approval of our family doctor—and two doctors at Sick Children’s Hospital, Toronto—I applied pneumatherapy to my daughter, who was then bed-ridden with a life-threatening lung condition (caused by five bouts of pneumonia that winter). Within two days she (now 56) began to recover and was never bed-ridden again.

Me? I have spent all my career and retirement—from 1953 to now—reading philosophy (pneumatology)/psychology/theology and doing, in cooperation with medical doctors and others in the art of healing,  what I call pneumatherapy—hypnosis without (I hope) the hocus pocus.

IMHO it’s not psychology, but neuroscience which makes the term (pneumatology) obsolete.


I repeat: Here is the CBC podcast I mentioned:
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2012/01/04/mind-reading-technology/

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