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In search of WILLPOWER—I am here to inquire: Is it a real power?
Posted: 02 August 2012 09:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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Quoting Rev:

Do you know of any philosophers who tell stories—give examples, analogies, metaphors, whatever—to get their points across?

Paul Sarte and Ayn Rand are good examples.

Even Socrates (Plato?) who told the story of how mathematics is inherent in our minds by using the slave boy and having him solve a problem without any education in the area.  Oh, and what about the cave with people who can only see the shadows on the walls?

Occam

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Posted: 02 August 2012 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Occam. - 29 July 2012 12:48 PM

Stephen, please don’t try to drag the determinism/free-will debate into this thread.

Occam,

Obviously this is the topic you were talking about, so that was totally unreasonable of you to criticise me for commenting.


My statement was only of my opinion and my basis for my other statements.  I know you have different views than I do.

Well, we are both determinists.

I stated mine it the Philosophy thread over a hundred pages ago and responses were made there.

I thought we pretty much agreed?


They should stay there, not contaminate this thread on a different subject with off-topic posts.

1) You use the word contaminate unfairly and unreasonably.

2) I was completely on topic.

Stephen

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Posted: 02 August 2012 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Occam. - 02 August 2012 09:48 AM

Quoting Rev:

Do you know of any philosophers who tell stories—give examples, analogies, metaphors, whatever—to get their points across?

Paul Sarte and Ayn Rand are good examples.

Even Socrates (Plato?) who told the story of how mathematics is inherent in our minds by using the slave boy and having him solve a problem without any education in the area.  Oh, and what about the cave with people who can only see the shadows on the walls?

I don’t know any philosopher who does not give examples, even the most science oriented.
Nearly the same for analogies.
Then some philosophers make the case that most language that deals with abstractions is metaphoric (I am not so sure if I agree with them, but the claim is serious).

An then there are the philosophers that are also known as writers, and not accidentally, the ones I know are existentialists: Sartre, as Occam already mentioned, Albert Camus, Sören Kierkegaard.

During my whole study in philosophy I’ve never heard of Ayn Rand. I assume she is a bad writer and a bad philosopher.

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Posted: 02 August 2012 05:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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GdB - 02 August 2012 11:20 AM

During my whole study in philosophy I’ve never heard of Ayn Rand. I assume she is a bad writer and a bad philosopher.

Right on both counts. She considered altruism morally wrong and selfishness a virtue.

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Posted: 02 August 2012 10:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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DarronS - 02 August 2012 05:32 PM

Right on both counts. She considered altruism morally wrong and selfishness a virtue.

Of course I have heard of her outside my philosophy study. I think the first time was here in the CFI-Forums. I assume she and her followers are the only ones that call her a philosopher. This is just the worst of right wing ideology.

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Posted: 03 August 2012 02:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Selfishness is a beautiful thing. cool smile

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Posted: 03 August 2012 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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GdB,  ABOUT COGNITIVE PSYCHOLOGY and the work of the late George A Miller, who just died. Interestingly, educated as a behaviourist, he became an early proponent of cognitive therapy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armitage_Miller  What do you know about it? Your thoughts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology

[ Edited: 03 August 2012 01:18 PM by RevLGKing ]
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Posted: 04 August 2012 01:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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Why are you addressing me on a topic where I have not said anything about it? Or do I miss something?

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Posted: 04 August 2012 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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GdB - 04 August 2012 01:59 AM

Why are you addressing me on a topic where I have not said anything about it?

Because you still haven’t made it clear to him that you refuse to be his potential customer through his “art of speaking.” You know how it goes: they stand in the pulpit and try this banch and that banch, the left corner and the right corner, spelling “God” with a capital “G,” then with tilde and a zero, and eventually somebody will bite. Since theology is BS, the clergy know it and go for quantity before quality.

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Posted: 04 August 2012 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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George - 04 August 2012 07:19 AM
GdB - 04 August 2012 01:59 AM

Why are you addressing me on a topic where I have not said anything about it?

Because you still haven’t made it clear to him that you refuse to be his potential customer through his “art of speaking.” You know how it goes: they stand in the pulpit and try this banch and that banch, the left corner and the right corner, spelling “God” with a capital “G,” then with tilde and a zero, and eventually somebody will bite. Since theology is BS, the clergy know it and go for quantity before quality.

That or it is the senility kicking in.  cheese

If you scan this thread you’ll see the Rev consistently deflecting questions, posting answers unrelated to the question, ignoring questions, and simply spouting nonsense when replying to a perfectly reasonable question.

As I keep saying, you can’t have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs, and the Rev’s beliefs are highly irrational.

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Posted: 04 August 2012 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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GdB - 04 August 2012 01:59 AM

Why are you addressing me on a topic where I have not said anything about it? Or do I miss something?

Like you, I ask: Did I miss something? If so, I apologize for my ignorance. Or was my question simply a stupid one?

Meanwhile, I ask you, or anyone: Are there rules at CFI defining the kind of questions posters ought to ask, to whom and when? Is it irrational, ignorant or stupid for me to assume that this IS a Center for Inquiry?

And, BTW, has anyone offered any answers to the question posed in the title of this thread?

WILLPOWER—Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength
In trying to revolutionize our “understanding of the most coveted human virtue: self-control”, by harnessing WILLpower as having a physical basis and operates like a real muscle, are research psychologists, like professor Roy F. Baumeister, nothing more than pseudo scientists?

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Posted: 04 August 2012 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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RevLGKing - 04 August 2012 10:31 AM

Like you, I ask: Did I miss something? If so, I apologize for my ignorance. Or was my question simply a stupid one?

Sorry, I am just surprised you asking a question directed at me, without any reason why you do that. My small contributions here have nothing to do with your question, at least that it seems to me.

RevLGKing - 04 August 2012 10:31 AM

Meanwhile, I ask you, or anyone: Are there rules at CFI defining the kind of questions posters ought to ask, to whom and when?

Not that I am aware of. But there also no rules about asking questions about questions…

RevLGKing - 04 August 2012 10:31 AM

Is it irrational, ignorant or stupid for me to assume that this IS a Center for Inquiry?

I am not entitled to answer this, as I am just a forum contributor. But at least I think CFI promotes the use of rational inquiry in public life. I avoided any discussion with you because you seem not interested in making clear statements, or asking clear questions, that invite to do some rational inquiry. I suspect that you are not interested in rational inquiry at all.

RevLGKing - 04 August 2012 10:31 AM

And, BTW, has anyone offered any answers to the question posed in the title of this thread?

I did not. I do not take the time to try to find some real interesting question in your over extensive, woolly OP.

The irritation I sense in other posters here seem to give me right. So just go ahead, but unless you ask a clear question, or have a clear statement, I probably will not react.

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Posted: 04 August 2012 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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RevLGKing - 04 August 2012 10:31 AM

And, BTW, has anyone offered any answers to the question posed in the title of this thread?

WILLPOWER—Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength
In trying to revolutionize our “understanding of the most coveted human virtue: self-control”, by harnessing WILLpower as having a physical basis and operates like a real muscle, are research psychologists, like professor Roy F. Baumeister, nothing more than pseudo scientists?

I reread your original post, and this question is nowhere in that post. If you had posted this instead of all the extraneous garbage we would not have gone around for six pages berating you for excessive and obfuscatory verbiage. You have finally asked a question we can discuss.

I checked into Baumeister’s research, and this is not pseudoscience. He and his team developed a hypothesis, designed experiments to test the hypothesis, conducted the experiments, reached a conclusion based on empirical evidence, then published their results for other researchers to read and test. This is how scientists work.

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Posted: 04 August 2012 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Quoting revgking:

Or was my question simply a stupid one?

I think you have to differentiate among stupid questions, silly ones and meaningless ones.

Meanwhile, I ask you, or anyone: Are there rules at CFI defining the kind of questions posters ought to ask, to whom and when? Is it irrational, ignorant or stupid for me to assume that this IS a Center for Inquiry?

Other than spam and unwarranted insults the forum is quite open to all kinds of questions.  However, there is no rule that says the members have to answer silly or meaningless ones.  That’s particularly true when the questions may be seen by the members as mere subterfuge to mask sermons.  This FORUM is supposed to be just that, a place for discussion.  When one poses one’s own views and asks questions, but ignores questions in response to the initial posts, that’s more sermonising rather than honest discussing.  This usually results either in members ignoring the thread, or becoming increasingly irritated, finally resulting in insults (not necessarialy unwarranted).

And, BTW, has anyone offered any answers to the question posed in the title of this thread?

I felt this fell in the category of meaningless question so I didn’t bother responding to it.

Occam

[ Edited: 04 August 2012 02:00 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 05 August 2012 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Occam. - 04 August 2012 01:57 PM

And, BTW, has anyone offered any answers to the question posed in the title of this thread?

I felt this fell in the category of meaningless question so I didn’t bother responding to it. Occam

Okay Occam, now that there is an answer from DarronS to my question in the topic title—one, BTW, which I appreciate—should this thread about the science involved in understanding the greatest human strength, WILLpower, continue to fit into the pseudoscience section?

SELF-CONTROL—Is it, The Most Coveted Human Virtue?
With fond memories, I look back to—I think that was 1942—when I was 12. It was then that I first became aware that the time had come for me to stop being a child, but not to fear being childlike—teachable. I said to myself: From now on, YOU are responsible for becoming a fully mature adult, but always teachable.

That was long before I ever heard the word psychology and how important it is to our understand of the self—to what I now call the integrated-self (mind, spirit, soul) made up of body, mind and spirit (soma, psyche and pneuma). BTW, I appreciate what Daniel Dennet says about the human spirit. Later, I would like to comment on his book, BREAKING THE SPELL ...
ABOUT DENNETT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett#Selected_books

At this point in my life, I was indeed fortunate that for the next four years (1942-1946) that, in addition to school studies, I was a member of a very active church-operated Boy Scout Troop. Interestingly, it was under the leadership of our newly-appointed minister. We soon discovered that he was not just our minister and Scout Master, he was a great nature lover, an outdoorsman and a practical student of human behaviour.

A SUMMARY, in rhyme, OF THE MORAL LAW WE LEARNED
Trusty (A Scout’s honour (word) is to be trusted) , loyal, helpful, brotherly, courteous, kind, thrifty, obedient, cheerful, pure as the rustling wind (rhyming with kind).

[ Edited: 05 August 2012 03:38 PM by RevLGKing ]
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