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Does the ability to feel pain determine whether abortion is ok or not?
Posted: 09 August 2012 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Occam.:

You said my analogy is inaccurate. Thank you for the insight. I had assumed asanta was referring to just pro life advocates. Seemed harsh for asanta to call all of society “self righteous sanctimonious pricks” for failing to care for the well being of infants.

You mentioned that part of abortion’s justification is society’s failure to care for infants. If I paraphrased incorrectly, please feel free to correct. Assuming this is a justification for abortion, would society’s failure to assist unwanted children also help justify post birth abortion? This may be a better question for asanta.

You asked me to reword my final sentence. Asanta beat me to your request. Asanta does correctly find the irresponsibility (asanta’s word) factor may be the true motive behind a pro life pretext. Thank you asanta. Asanta has added in non consent as an ignored factor preceded by some insult. These additions are not mine. Again asanta if I paraphrased incorrectly, please feel free to correct.

Write4U:

You said that the pro life push is an Agenda. You are correct.

You said that men have no standing in this abortion area. Again, please feel free to correct any of my incorrect paraphrasing. Would men have no standing in post birth abortion too?

student

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Posted: 09 August 2012 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Quoting Student:

Assuming this is a justification for abortion, would society’s failure to assist unwanted children also help justify post birth abortion?

  Why limit it to unwanted children?  We know we have a population problem so why not have “post birth abortions” for everyone who’s physically or mentally substandard, and why limit it to children (oops, better watch out that we don’t include those who have socially ‘wrong’ views)?

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Posted: 09 August 2012 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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student - 09 August 2012 08:17 AM

Would men have no standing in post birth abortion too?

student

There is no such thing as a “post birth abortion”. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, whether naturally or by medical means before viability. Birth is just that, delivery of a living viable fetus. Still birth is the delivery of a dead infant previously viable.
What are you talking about?

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Posted: 09 August 2012 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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I think he’s playing a game, Asanta. trying to equate abortion during pregnancy to murder after birth.  I always get a kick out of people who try to be tricky during a discussion.  snake LOL

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Posted: 09 August 2012 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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There is no such thing as a “post birth abortion”. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, whether naturally or by medical means before viability. Birth is just that, delivery of a living viable fetus. Still birth is the delivery of a dead infant previously viable.
What are you talking about?


I’ll have to admit that stumped me too Asanta. Never heard of that term! I wondered if English was his native language.


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Posted: 09 August 2012 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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asanta:

You asked what I am talking about. Occam quickly came to the answer. Instead of murder, my question would preferrably equate abortion to post birth homocide. Murder is a criminal term in many jurisdictions.

Is this equation wrong?

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Posted: 09 August 2012 09:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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student - 09 August 2012 08:10 PM

asanta:

You asked what I am talking about. Occam quickly came to the answer. Instead of murder, my question would preferrably equate abortion to post birth homocide. Murder is a criminal term in many jurisdictions.

Is this equation wrong?

student

Yes. The fetus’ survival is determined solely on the survival and ability of the woman to support it. After birth, an infant can be cared for by any number of organizations or people.  However, it should still be the woman’s choice as to whether she should carry the child, in conjunction with her medical provider. For instance, I have seen cases where a woman’s health is in danger to the point of death, and the doctor advises against continuing the pregnancy, and she continues fully informed that she is risking her life. That is her right and her choice. It is also her choice if she decides for whatever reason, that she does NOT want to continue the pregnancy. It doesn’t even matter why, or how she came to be pregnant, it only matters that it is her choice.

Pregnancy is not risk free. It is the woman taking the risk, which makes the choice rightfully hers. Up until last year, I could say that I have known of 6 cases through my career, where women have died in childbirth or pregnancy. As of last year, the number goes up by one more childbirth death.

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Posted: 10 August 2012 12:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Abortion is the killing of a potential human individual.  Most of us (humans) don’t consider it to be murder. (And most of us are okay with killing even actualized human individuals in certain sircumstances, such as in war, self-defense, defense of loved ones. Many of us support killing actualized human individuals who commit certain crimes.  We do not consider this to be murder even though it is the killing of an actualized human individual.)

The case of aborting a fetus is a special case (of killing) in which the fetus is a non-actualized human individual.  More importantly, it is a part of a woman’s body. In this special case, although it seems a horrible decision to make, to kill a potential human individual, I, personally, do not begrudge (or envy) any woman making that ultimate decision, as it is a part of her body and no one else’s. In a most righteous world, I think that the father should have input, but that the ultimate decision is still the mother’s. It is her body that the fetus is a part of.  It is her choice.

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Posted: 10 August 2012 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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asanta:

You said the fetus’ survival is determined solely on the woman to support it and after birth an infant can be cared for by any number of organizations or people. You point out where medical technology has not yet advanced. No doubt your medical service has seen many of the past advances. The only other (close to) single source of survival example seems to be bone marrow donation. You can probably better comment on this analogy or think of examples I am ignorant of.

TimB:

You called the pre born potential human individual and a non-actualized human individual. Are these synonymous? The US High court agreed with you in calling the pre born potential human life. Roe v. Wade. Are potential and non-actualized medical concepts?

You said that the pre born is a part of a woman’s body. Conjoined twins seem to have a similar concept. No doubt parents may decide to sacrifice one twin to improve the other twin’s life. Unlike conjoined twins, why is it possible for the pre born and mother to be two different sexes about 50 percent of the time, two different blood types the vast majority of the time, and two different DNA types all of the time?

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Posted: 10 August 2012 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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student - 10 August 2012 08:11 AM

asanta:

You said the fetus’ survival is determined solely on the woman to support it and after birth an infant can be cared for by any number of organizations or people.

I believe I responded to the idea of “can be cared for by any number of organizations or people” in my post, #28:

. . . children are an entirely different situation.  All of the studies I’ve seen indicate that orphanages are terrible environments for the mental health of a small child and foster care is not much better.  There are a great many children who would have been aborted if their mother had the chance, possibly because she couldn’t care for the child, or the child has severe handicaps, and who are not going to be adopted.

 
And if I were a single, unemployed pregnant young woman who knew that the child and she would be living under a bridge or worse, and I had the option of having the child and letting it be raised by some right wing extremist religious nut, I’d choose abortion as the most humane thing that could be done for the fetus.

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[ Edited: 10 August 2012 05:09 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 10 August 2012 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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student,
You said that the pre born is a part of a woman’s body (clip)
Unlike conjoined twins, why is it possible for the pre born and mother to be two different sexes about 50 percent of the time, two different blood types the vast majority of the time, and two different DNA types all of the time?

A same DNA fetus would be a clone (btw. there are species of salamanders which are all female and clones of their mothers.  But normally a fetus has DNA from both mother and father. 

Thus while one can say that it is not really an actual part of the woman’s body, it may be considered parasitic as it is directly connected to the woman’s body and feeds on her exclusively.

Then there is the word “miscarriage”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscariage

[ Edited: 10 August 2012 09:01 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 10 August 2012 08:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Write4U - 10 August 2012 07:00 PM

Then there is the word “miscarriage”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscariage

Speaking of miscarriages, let’s not forget all those abortions God performs,

Miscarriage is the most common type of pregnancy loss, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage. Chemical pregnancies may account for 50-75% of all miscarriages. This occurs when a pregnancy is lost shortly after implantation, resulting in bleeding that occurs around the time of her expected period. The woman may not realize that she conceived when she experiences a chemical pregnancy.

So if it is OK for God to do it all the time, why isn’t it OK for a woman in distress to resort to that form of self-defense?

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Posted: 10 August 2012 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Therein lies the irony, God specifically forbids (scriptural interpretation) abortion, but seems to break his own rules on a regular basis. I guess God is the only one qualified to play doctor without accountability.

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Posted: 11 August 2012 12:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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As far as I know, a human fetus can still only successfully develop and thrive to birth through its maternal host.  As it is the woman’s body that is the host, she should have the ultimate choice re: what to do with her body.  If males wish to have that choice, they need to figure out a way to become pregnant and give birth themselves. Even then it would be their personal choice re: their individual pregnancy, not a choice for others.

Abortion is not murder, though pro-lifers wish to say that it is, thus promoting the idea that their motivation for advocating laws to end abortions is solely a matter of of supporting the rights of a fetus.  However, I believe that many are also motivated by “keeping women in their place”.  This is most evident in pro-lifers who also are opposed to the use of contraceptives.

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Posted: 11 August 2012 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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And what about those cases where there are conjoined twins, and one is much weaker than the other. I case like this occurred in SoCa a few years ago. One twin had a normal heart, the other did not and was dependent on her sibs heart to survive. The ‘healthy’ twin could not support two bodies, and her sister could not survive alone. The decision was made to separate them as soon as possible to allow one to survive. There are also the occasional incidence of a ‘parasitic twin’ which appears as an extra limb in an odd place, sometimes even a head with a brain, eyes and mouth, but no way to talk or breathe without an esophagus or trachea. In these cases, the twin is usually excised but I rarely hear an uproar when this happens, although they are also a ‘human being’ by pro-life criteria.

When abortion was first legalized, women needed the consent of their husbands to terminate the pregnancy, if they were married. It became quickly apparent that men used this to control women who were in abusive relationships and this was changed.

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