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Does the ability to feel pain determine whether abortion is ok or not?
Posted: 18 August 2012 03:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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author=“Bryan” date=“1345329930
But ... isn’t it in society’s interest to prevent a declining population that, in turn, creates potentially disastrous pressure on social programs financed on a pay-as-you-go basis?

Personally, at this point, I think that society would be better off with a declining population, at least in the long run.  But I haven’t noticed that the population is declining. 

If suddenly there were a relatively very small population, it could make sense to outlaw abortion.  (My apologies to the post apocalyptic female survivors.)

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Posted: 18 August 2012 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Quoting TimB:

If suddenly there were a relatively very small population, it could make sense to outlaw abortion.

  I don’t think so, Tim.  We accomplish much more by reward than by punishment.  Rather than outlawing abortions, I believe offering significant government subsidies to women who have children would be a great deal more effective at increasing population.

Occam

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Posted: 18 August 2012 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Occam. - 18 August 2012 05:04 PM

Quoting TimB:

If suddenly there were a relatively very small population, it could make sense to outlaw abortion.

  I don’t think so, Tim.  We accomplish much more by reward than by punishment.  Rather than outlawing abortions, I believe offering significant government subsidies to women who have children would be a great deal more effective at increasing population.

Occam

That’s a better idea, for sure.

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Posted: 19 August 2012 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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Slightly off topic, but can’t resist sharing this example of the neo-Republican* mind in action:

Todd Akin On Abortion: ‘Legitimate Rape’ Victims Have ‘Ways To Try To Shut That Whole Thing Down’ (VIDEO)
Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.) justified his extreme opposition to abortion by claiming that victims of “legitimate rape” rarely get pregnant.

In an interview with KTVI-TV on Sunday, the GOP Senate nominee was asked if he supported abortion in the case of rape.

“From what I understand from doctors, that’s really rare,” said Akin said of pregnancy caused by rape. “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. . .


*I just can’t get myself to call these new tea-bagger repubs - Republican.  Back when I was I kid, I still didn’t like a lot of them, but at least they seemed like real people rather than these sick nightmare characters running around these days.

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Posted: 19 August 2012 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 19 August 2012 07:12 PM

Slightly off topic, but can’t resist sharing this example of the neo-Republican* mind in action:

Todd Akin On Abortion: ‘Legitimate Rape’ Victims Have ‘Ways To Try To Shut That Whole Thing Down’ (VIDEO)
Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.) justified his extreme opposition to abortion by claiming that victims of “legitimate rape” rarely get pregnant.

In an interview with KTVI-TV on Sunday, the GOP Senate nominee was asked if he supported abortion in the case of rape.

“From what I understand from doctors, that’s really rare,” said Akin said of pregnancy caused by rape. “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. . .


*I just can’t get myself to call these new tea-bagger repubs - Republican.  Back when I was I kid, I still didn’t like a lot of them, but at least they seemed like real people rather than these sick nightmare characters running around these days.

You know it’s bad when us progressives begin waxing nostalgic about the good old days (when there were actually Republican leaders that you could grudgingly respect).

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Posted: 19 August 2012 09:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Don’t get me started on this dude.  I didn’t vote for him in the primaries and have no intention of ever voting for him, because he acts like an uneducated hillbilly, making me ashamed to be a Missourian.  I want out of Missouri.

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Posted: 21 August 2012 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Mriana - 19 August 2012 09:29 PM

Don’t get me started on this dude.  I didn’t vote for him in the primaries and have no intention of ever voting for him, because he acts like an uneducated hillbilly, making me ashamed to be a Missourian.  I want out of Missouri.

Apparently, the idea, that women cannot become pregnant from rape, became prevalent in the middle ages. 
http://news.yahoo.com/rape-trauma-barrier-pregnancy-no-scientific-basis-235231028.html

This guy, like many right wingers has values from the distant past.  I saw his apology.  He said that his use of the word “legitimate” was wrong.  I think he changed it to “forced” rape (still apparently not getting that any rape is by definition against the victim’s will, and therefore forced). And, also, still, after all of the hullaballoo about his remark, he apparently did not bother to look up scientific evidence on the subject which would have shown him that he should have apologized for espousing the whole idea, not just the adjective that he used.

Doesn’t it seem that a lot of right wing politicians are becoming bolder and bolder with ideas that can set women’s rights back to their status of the 1950’s or, perhaps, further back than that?

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Posted: 21 August 2012 06:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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TimB - 21 August 2012 04:35 AM
Mriana - 19 August 2012 09:29 PM

Don’t get me started on this dude.  I didn’t vote for him in the primaries and have no intention of ever voting for him, because he acts like an uneducated hillbilly, making me ashamed to be a Missourian.  I want out of Missouri.

Apparently, the idea, that women cannot become pregnant from rape, became prevalent in the middle ages. 
http://news.yahoo.com/rape-trauma-barrier-pregnancy-no-scientific-basis-235231028.html

This guy, like many right wingers has values from the distant past.  I saw his apology.  He said that his use of the word “legitimate” was wrong.  I think he changed it to “forced” rape (still apparently not getting that any rape is by definition against the victim’s will, and therefore forced). And, also, still, after all of the hullaballoo about his remark, he apparently did not bother to look up scientific evidence on the subject which would have shown him that he should have apologized for espousing the whole idea, not just the adjective that he used.

Doesn’t it seem that a lot of right wing politicians are becoming bolder and bolder with ideas that can set women’s rights back to their status of the 1950’s or, perhaps, further back than that?

Yes, it most definitely does seem like that.  They are archaic views.  Oddly enough, the GOP said they are pulling funding for Akin’s campaign due to his statement:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/with-todd-akins-rape-comments-abortion-is-back-in-the-campaign-spotlight/2012/08/20/c497bae4-eac7-11e1-a80b-9f898562d010_story.html

I see this as both good and bad.  If he stays, Claire is almost definitely a shoe-in, given that the GOP isn’t going to fund his campaign, but if he quits, due to the pressure, and the GOP replaces him, then Claire might not be a shoe-in for a second term.  A part of me wants him to stay in the race, in the hopes that Claire, a Pro-Choice person, is more likely to win.  At the same time, if there is a very slim chance that Akin would win the Senate seat after this, I’d far rather like to see him replaced for a smarter and more educated Repug.  The thing is, in MO, he has to quit first and remove his name from the ballot.  The GOP cannot just replace him.  If he refuses to quit, despite not receiving any funds from the GOP, the GOP is stuck with the Neanderthal imbecile.

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Posted: 21 August 2012 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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OK, my totally unjustified, baseless opinion:  -  I figure Akin’s proof that women don’t get pregnant when raped is that when he did it, the woman didn’t get pregnant.  snake

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Posted: 21 August 2012 11:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Mriana - 21 August 2012 06:31 AM
TimB - 21 August 2012 04:35 AM
Mriana - 19 August 2012 09:29 PM

Don’t get me started on this dude.  I didn’t vote for him in the primaries and have no intention of ever voting for him, because he acts like an uneducated hillbilly, making me ashamed to be a Missourian.  I want out of Missouri.

Apparently, the idea, that women cannot become pregnant from rape, became prevalent in the middle ages. 
http://news.yahoo.com/rape-trauma-barrier-pregnancy-no-scientific-basis-235231028.html

This guy, like many right wingers has values from the distant past.  I saw his apology.  He said that his use of the word “legitimate” was wrong.  I think he changed it to “forced” rape (still apparently not getting that any rape is by definition against the victim’s will, and therefore forced). And, also, still, after all of the hullaballoo about his remark, he apparently did not bother to look up scientific evidence on the subject which would have shown him that he should have apologized for espousing the whole idea, not just the adjective that he used.

Doesn’t it seem that a lot of right wing politicians are becoming bolder and bolder with ideas that can set women’s rights back to their status of the 1950’s or, perhaps, further back than that?

Yes, it most definitely does seem like that.  They are archaic views.  Oddly enough, the GOP said they are pulling funding for Akin’s campaign due to his statement:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/with-todd-akins-rape-comments-abortion-is-back-in-the-campaign-spotlight/2012/08/20/c497bae4-eac7-11e1-a80b-9f898562d010_story.html

I see this as both good and bad.  If he stays, Claire is almost definitely a shoe-in, given that the GOP isn’t going to fund his campaign, but if he quits, due to the pressure, and the GOP replaces him, then Claire might not be a shoe-in for a second term.  A part of me wants him to stay in the race, in the hopes that Claire, a Pro-Choice person, is more likely to win.  At the same time, if there is a very slim chance that Akin would win the Senate seat after this, I’d far rather like to see him replaced for a smarter and more educated Repug.  The thing is, in MO, he has to quit first and remove his name from the ballot.  The GOP cannot just replace him.  If he refuses to quit, despite not receiving any funds from the GOP, the GOP is stuck with the Neanderthal imbecile.

For better or worse it looks like he is staying in.  With massive pressure from his party and with Sean Hannity giving him multiple prompts and saying the words for him, he finally sort of agreed that his idea that women are unlikely to get pregnant when raped is completely unfounded. (Still, he tried to hedge multiple times by saying he is not familiar with the percentages (of pregnancy resulting from rape).

It is not odd that the Repubs have pulled support from his campaign.  With Romney (master of professing, at least momentarily, the side of an issue that is most beneficial to him) at the helm, the Repubs will do what they can to appear to turn around from and to deflect from this issue.

However it is in their platform and it is in a bill cosponsored by Paul Ryan that the unborn child’s rights are to be protected no matter what.  IOW, the potential mother’s right to what to do with her own body is subjugated to the rights of her unborn fetus, period.  With their quick about face on the issue of rape, in this case, if they do get elected and put their policies in place, perhaps at least women who get raped will get to decide what to do with their body, in terms of whether or not to abort, maybe, for awhile. 

Oh, and Mriana, not to be confrontive, but I think that neither Neanderthals nor imbeciles deserve the insult of being compared to extremist leaders in the Republican party.

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Posted: 21 August 2012 11:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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Occam. - 21 August 2012 12:13 PM

OK, my totally unjustified, baseless opinion:  -  I figure Akin’s proof that women don’t get pregnant when raped is that when he did it, the woman didn’t get pregnant.  snake

Occam

The opinion that Akin is an actual rapist may be totally unjustified and baseless, but the opinion that his and his party’s objectives re:abortion is a metaphorical rape attempt on women’s rights is not totaly unjustified or baseless.

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Posted: 21 August 2012 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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Occam. - 21 August 2012 12:13 PM

OK, my totally unjustified, baseless opinion:  -  I figure Akin’s proof that women don’t get pregnant when raped is that when he did it, the woman didn’t get pregnant.  snake

Occam

I think that he supposes that when a raped woman becomes pregnant she wanted to be raped. (You know when a woman says ‘no’...)

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Posted: 21 August 2012 11:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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Mriana - 21 August 2012 06:31 AM

I think he changed it to “forced” rape (still apparently not getting that any rape is by definition against the victim’s will, and therefore forced).

Statutory rape may have the willing consent of the victim.  The state deems that the victim is too young to grant informed consent.  And that includes guys and gals as young as 17 year of age, if I remember correctly. 

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm

Wow.  In Arizona the age of consent is 18 years (according to the above source).  Apparently all pregnancies in girls under the age of 18 in Arizona were the result of rape. 

Actually, I’m hearing reports that Akin was talking about persons seeking abortions who falsely claim the pregnancy was the result of rape.

My opinion:  Akin should have withdrawn from the race simply for saying something so cockamamie that it has liberals up in arms (figuratively speaking!) nationwide.

A Democratic candidate from Florida is claiming that Akin’s statements show that her opponent is out of touch.  Seems like a tenuous connection at best.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 01:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Bryan - 21 August 2012 11:43 PM
Mriana - 21 August 2012 06:31 AM

I think he changed it to “forced” rape (still apparently not getting that any rape is by definition against the victim’s will, and therefore forced).

Statutory rape may have the willing consent of the victim.  The state deems that the victim is too young to grant informed consent.  And that includes guys and gals as young as 17 year of age, if I remember correctly. 

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm

Wow.  In Arizona the age of consent is 18 years (according to the above source).  Apparently all pregnancies in girls under the age of 18 in Arizona were the result of rape. 

Actually, I’m hearing reports that Akin was talking about persons seeking abortions who falsely claim the pregnancy was the result of rape.

My opinion:  Akin should have withdrawn from the race simply for saying something so cockamamie that it has liberals up in arms (figuratively speaking!) nationwide.

A Democratic candidate from Florida is claiming that Akin’s statements show that her opponent is out of touch.  Seems like a tenuous connection at best.

A person who is not competent to give consent cannot willingly consent.  Granted that the statutes may, in reality, be erroneous, and some persons under 18 may actually be competent to give consent, but the laws say otherwise.  So in the eyes of the law, the rape is still forceable.  But this is just another red hering, that you are so good at introducing, so as to start debate that deflects from the misguided objectives of extreme right wingers.

Next, the idea that women routinely falsely claim that their pregnancy is due to rape, is another right wing tactic to press the objective of ending women’s right to choose what to do with their bodies, in regard to abortion.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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TimB - 22 August 2012 01:00 AM
Bryan - 21 August 2012 11:43 PM
Mriana - 21 August 2012 06:31 AM

I think he changed it to “forced” rape (still apparently not getting that any rape is by definition against the victim’s will, and therefore forced).

Statutory rape may have the willing consent of the victim.  The state deems that the victim is too young to grant informed consent.  And that includes guys and gals as young as 17 year of age, if I remember correctly. 

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-R-0376.htm

Wow.  In Arizona the age of consent is 18 years (according to the above source).  Apparently all pregnancies in girls under the age of 18 in Arizona were the result of rape. 

Actually, I’m hearing reports that Akin was talking about persons seeking abortions who falsely claim the pregnancy was the result of rape.

My opinion:  Akin should have withdrawn from the race simply for saying something so cockamamie that it has liberals up in arms (figuratively speaking!) nationwide.

A Democratic candidate from Florida is claiming that Akin’s statements show that her opponent is out of touch.  Seems like a tenuous connection at best.

A person who is not competent to give consent cannot willingly consent.  Granted that the statutes may, in reality, be erroneous, and some persons under 18 may actually be competent to give consent, but the laws say otherwise.  So in the eyes of the law, the rape is still forceable.  But this is just another red hering, that you are so good at introducing, so as to start debate that deflects from the misguided objectives of extreme right wingers.

Tim, it’s not at all a red herring.  It’s at the very heart of Akin’s objective.  If he’s saying, as I have heard he intended, that by “legitimate rape” he was talking about persons using the allegation of rape to increase their access to abortion then we’re talking about a different misguided objective than if he meant to say something else.  Just because you or Mriana doesn’t agree with Akin doesn’t give you the excuse to build straw man arguments out of his statements, and correcting those straw man arguments is not a red herring.  It is central.  Keep your criticisms of Akin within the bounds of reason and I’ll have little reason to post to this thread.  I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there are many threads here which express views with which I do not agree but in which I do not participate.  My goal is not to create distraction but to help produce clearer thinking.

So think clearly already and I"ll bow out.

Whoa!  Last line almost escaped comment!

Next, the idea that women routinely falsely claim that their pregnancy is due to rape, is another right wing tactic to press the objective of ending women’s right to choose what to do with their bodies, in regard to abortion.

He didn’t say anything about “routinely,” did he?  Funny seeing you express such concern about women’s control of their bodies after you threw young Arizona women under the bus, seeming pretty much okay with the state determining that they can’t responsibly choose to have sex until they’re 18.

[ Edited: 22 August 2012 06:20 AM by Bryan ]
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