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The Republican Ticket’s Greatest Strength - Lying
Posted: 21 August 2012 08:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 21 August 2012 06:33 PM

To an extent, unions have made life better for many people, but they’ve also created huge problems that the beneficiaries of unionization can’t or won’t fix.


Mike, ya gotta splain’ this to me man. I’ve been involved in unions all of my working life from the auto workers, teamsters, and NEA, and have seen only benefits not only for the members but for management as well. A well written contract protects both sides allowing for compromise based on profits and living wages. it provides a reciprocal agreement that makes negotiation easier by putting the cards on the table so to speak. I’m not going into detail about the historical struggle that unions faced; you may know that already but suffice it to say that without them underemployment would be massive with no guarantees of retirement, in short near slave labor as in the 19th Century. The fact that union membership is down is related to the mistaken impression that they are no longer needed and that state and national governments will protect the worker. This is self delusional. Neocons want less government involvement and seek to dismantle these protections leaving the worker unprotected. As wages are eaten up by the cost of living (around 3% annually) and raises withheld by the employers the middle and lower classes join the ranks of the poor. It’s happening now as the wealthy make war on the unions, somewhat successfully. We stopped them here, but unless more people wake up from their self induced slumber and realize what’s about to happen it’s low wage jobs for us all, except the wealthy of course. And if that sounds Marxist Christine, then tough shit.

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Unions are like Democracies; the concept of them is nice, but they’re doomed to fail in reality.

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Posted: 21 August 2012 08:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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What I fear most is the public hysteria about Sharia law. Most christians believe that the only way to combat Sharia law is to install Christian (biblical) law.

It is amazing to me to hear politicians denegrade and dismiss secular law. Have these people gone completely mad?

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Posted: 21 August 2012 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Write4U - 21 August 2012 08:38 PM

What I fear most is the public hysteria about Sharia law. Most christians believe that the only way to combat Sharia law is to install Christian (biblical) law.

Huh?

Source?  I’m a Christian and I’ve never heard anything remotely like that.  Did somebody do a survey or something?

It is amazing to me to hear politicians denegrade and dismiss secular law. Have these people gone completely mad?

Who’s a politician you have in mind, and what did they say about secular law (please)?

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Posted: 22 August 2012 12:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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mid atlantic - 21 August 2012 08:31 PM

Unions are like Democracies; the concept of them is nice, but they’re doomed to fail in reality.

Where do simplistic half truth (at best) bits of dogma, like this, come from?

With this unfounded assertion, you completely ignored multiple actual (not conceptual) successes of unions listed in Jack’s post that you were supposedly replying to.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 12:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Bryan - 21 August 2012 11:47 PM
Write4U - 21 August 2012 08:38 PM

What I fear most is the public hysteria about Sharia law. Most christians believe that the only way to combat Sharia law is to install Christian (biblical) law.

Huh?

Source?  I’m a Christian and I’ve never heard anything remotely like that.  Did somebody do a survey or something?

Looked at a history book lately?

I hear a lot of Christians say that they would certainly choose Christian laws over Islamic laws, never invoking Secular law.

It is amazing to me to hear politicians denegrade and dismiss secular law. Have these people gone completely mad?

Who’s a politician you have in mind, and what did they say about secular law (please)?

Have you been following the woman’s reproductive rights debate lately?  The choice for republican vice-president is an advocate of taking all reproductive control rights away from women, based on his religious convictions of fetal “personhood” attained at time of conception and man’s dominion in law over women, even in a woman’s domain.

[ Edited: 22 August 2012 01:00 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 August 2012 06:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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TimB - 22 August 2012 12:34 AM
mid atlantic - 21 August 2012 08:31 PM

Unions are like Democracies; the concept of them is nice, but they’re doomed to fail in reality.

Where do simplistic half truth (at best) bits of dogma, like this, come from?

With this unfounded assertion, you completely ignored multiple actual (not conceptual) successes of unions listed in Jack’s post that you were supposedly replying to.

They come from real life.


The American manufacturing industries are mostly dead; unions were not the cause of these deaths, but their inflexibility, and general poor courses of action contributed. By this I mean the unionized workers’ actions contributed to their lower quality of life, which is ultimately what the whole point is.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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mid atlantic - 22 August 2012 06:09 AM
TimB - 22 August 2012 12:34 AM
mid atlantic - 21 August 2012 08:31 PM

Unions are like Democracies; the concept of them is nice, but they’re doomed to fail in reality.

Where do simplistic half truth (at best) bits of dogma, like this, come from?

With this unfounded assertion, you completely ignored multiple actual (not conceptual) successes of unions listed in Jack’s post that you were supposedly replying to.

They come from real life.


The American manufacturing industries are mostly dead; unions were not the cause of these deaths, but their inflexibility, and general poor courses of action contributed. By this I mean the unionized workers’ actions contributed to their lower quality of life, which is ultimately what the whole point is.

Which has contributed more to the death of American industries and to the decreasing quality of American workers lives? A) Unions, who gave us a 40 hr work week and holidays and a living wage, and various worker protections, etc., etc.  or B) the business practices of the “captains of industry"exporting jobs and unregulated speculating high end capitalists exporting wealth to the few

I’ll give you a hint.  It’s B.

As you and others drink the 1% koolaid, the lives of current and future generations of American workers will continue to decline in quality.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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TimB - 22 August 2012 07:28 AM
mid atlantic - 22 August 2012 06:09 AM
TimB - 22 August 2012 12:34 AM
mid atlantic - 21 August 2012 08:31 PM

Unions are like Democracies; the concept of them is nice, but they’re doomed to fail in reality.

Where do simplistic half truth (at best) bits of dogma, like this, come from?

With this unfounded assertion, you completely ignored multiple actual (not conceptual) successes of unions listed in Jack’s post that you were supposedly replying to.

They come from real life.


The American manufacturing industries are mostly dead; unions were not the cause of these deaths, but their inflexibility, and general poor courses of action contributed. By this I mean the unionized workers’ actions contributed to their lower quality of life, which is ultimately what the whole point is.

Which has contributed more to the death of American industries and to the decreasing quality of American workers lives? A) Unions, who gave us a 40 hr work week and holidays and a living wage, and various worker protections, etc., etc.  or B) the business practices of the “captains of industry"exporting jobs and unregulated speculating high end capitalists exporting wealth to the few

I’ll give you a hint.  It’s B.

As you and others drink the 1% koolaid, the lives of current and future generations of American workers will continue to decline in quality.

The captains of industry are far more responsible for the failure of industry, but the unionized workers are far more responsible for their own decline.


I was trying to avoid saying this - because it might cause a lot of trouble; but some people need unions, because they’re essentially weak-willed sheep. They need someone to look up to when things go right, and they need someone to blame when things go wrong.  The naturally enterprising however, don’t need that, and that’s why all unions will eventually become corrupt - the balance always tips.  The two can’t really ever be on the same page.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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MidAtlantic-I was trying to avoid saying this - because it might cause a lot of trouble; but some people need unions, because they’re essentially weak-willed sheep. They need someone to look up to when things go right, and they need someone to blame when things go wrong.  The naturally enterprising however, don’t need that, and that’s why all unions will eventually become corrupt - the balance always tips.  The two can’t really ever be on the same page.

Actually unions are naturally enterprising! In fact they are nothing more than corporations inside of corporations.
Unions harness the laws of supply and demand and capitalize on squeezing the very most value out of a resource-Labor.
So, you can look at unions as a corporation that another corporation wants to do business with.
For example, GM wants to do business with the UAW.  It’s that simple.
The weak willed sheep are the laborers who have been tricked into thinking they are rugged individualists. Instead of incorporating their labor and demanding a market value for it via a union, they believe that their best bet is to go to work
and take what they are given and be happy for it.
So factory workers who are non-union and get paid crappy wages and little or no benefits are the sheep. They are strong willed sheep if you like!
They use their strong wills to endure unsafe working conditions, lower wages, poor benefits, and good ole’ pats on the back and patronizing company picnics.
“......and that’s why all unions will eventually become corrupt - the balance always tips”. And everyone lived happily ever after, The End.  What a contrived little ending to your story!
In closing, Unions are one of the best examples of humans using natural enterprise that I can think of.
The next best thing is probably shipping your manufacturing plant overseas unpatriotically to have quasi-slaves build your widgets, then import the crap back here to sell to millions of people who are having their standards of living steadily reduced.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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VYAZMA - 22 August 2012 12:12 PM

MidAtlantic-I was trying to avoid saying this - because it might cause a lot of trouble; but some people need unions, because they’re essentially weak-willed sheep. They need someone to look up to when things go right, and they need someone to blame when things go wrong.  The naturally enterprising however, don’t need that, and that’s why all unions will eventually become corrupt - the balance always tips.  The two can’t really ever be on the same page.

Actually unions are naturally enterprising! In fact they are nothing more than corporations inside of corporations.
Unions harness the laws of supply and demand and capitalize on squeezing the very most value out of a resource-Labor.
So, you can look at unions as a corporation that another corporation wants to do business with.
For example, GM wants to do business with the UAW.  It’s that simple.
The weak willed sheep are the laborers who have been tricked into thinking they are rugged individualists. Instead of incorporating their labor and demanding a market value for it via a union, they believe that their best bet is to go to work
and take what they are given and be happy for it.
So factory workers who are non-union and get paid crappy wages and little or no benefits are the sheep. They are strong willed sheep if you like!
They use their strong wills to endure unsafe working conditions, lower wages, poor benefits, and good ole’ pats on the back and patronizing company picnics.
“......and that’s why all unions will eventually become corrupt - the balance always tips”. And everyone lived happily ever after, The End.  What a contrived little ending to your story!
In closing, Unions are one of the best examples of humans using natural enterprise that I can think of.
The next best thing is probably shipping your manufacturing plant overseas unpatriotically to have quasi-slaves build your widgets, then import the crap back here to sell to millions of people who are having their standards of living steadily reduced.

Good point about unions being corporations inside of corporations, that’s hard to argue with.

You’ve missed my point in that factory example though; all factory workers should join unions - simply because they are factory workers, their backs are against the wall, and you just can’t trust large companies. Never have been able to,  never will.  Small companies are a different story.

The self employed/small business types don’t need what the union can give though; they are the naturally enterprising I am referring to.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Mid Atlantic-You’ve missed my point in that factory example though; all factory workers should join unions - simply because they are factory workers, their backs are against the wall, and you just can’t trust large companies. Never have been able to,  never will.  Small companies are a different story.

The self employed/small business types don’t need what the union can give though; they are the naturally enterprising I am referring to.

All factories don’t need to unionize(although it would be nice.) Just a good enough percentage that the supply and demand and capitalist dynamics come into play.
Kodak in Rochester, NY was never unionized, however Kodak realized that if it wanted to retain a quality workforce it had to pay competitively with the surrounding factories that were unionized.

I saw this driving truck with the Teamsters.  I would be in yard or on a dock talking with our non-union competitors and they were generally paid almost as good as Teamsters. They had to be or their employers couldn’t keep drivers. Most of these non-union drivers new this and appreciated our presence and organization.  Heck I worked with a few of them trying to get their own shops Unionized. Most wanted to go Union. Most are still being prevented from doing so.

That was then however, this is now. Kodak’s out of business(for other reasons) and that market capability of unions is almost gone.
Now factories and service oriented business can bid for the cheapest labor. The effects are becomming noticeable.

I think we need to define small business. I see this term being bandied about alot.  What is small business?  I think of an ice cream shop, or 10 man landscaping operation.
I don’t consider a manufacturer with 150 employees and large machinery and millions of dollars of sales a small business.
Actually it has to be considerably smaller than that.
As a driver I entered and did my job with practically every factory or service in the Buffalo-Niagara region.(and I mean just about every place from GM and Ford, DuPont and Goodyear down to small shops with 5 employees who make garden gloves.)
There’s no doubt that these so-called “small businesses”(places with 25-100 employees and millions of dollars in sales) are the most in need
of unions.  Without a doubt this is where I saw the most heinous working conditions, crappy pay, depressed workers, lower quality workers(druggies, ex-cons, beat-up run down people, young people, single mothers, minorities, illegal aliens etc..)This is where unions are needed the most.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 04:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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VYAZMA - 23 August 2012 10:10 AM

I think we need to define small business. I see this term being bandied about alot.  What is small business?  I think of an ice cream shop, or 10 man landscaping operation.
I don’t consider a manufacturer with 150 employees and large machinery and millions of dollars of sales a small business.
Actually it has to be considerably smaller than that.

Agreed.  15-20 individuals is the max. of a small business, IMO.

http://www.sbaonline.sba.gov/contractingopportunities/owners/basics/whatismallbusiness/index.html  These are the SBA definitions.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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mid atlantic - 23 August 2012 04:08 PM
VYAZMA - 23 August 2012 10:10 AM

I think we need to define small business. I see this term being bandied about alot.  What is small business?  I think of an ice cream shop, or 10 man landscaping operation.
I don’t consider a manufacturer with 150 employees and large machinery and millions of dollars of sales a small business.
Actually it has to be considerably smaller than that.

Agreed.  15-20 individuals is the max. of a small business, IMO.

http://www.sbaonline.sba.gov/contractingopportunities/owners/basics/whatismallbusiness/index.html  These are the SBA definitions.

IMO, that would be reasonable, but in reality this is not true.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/small-business/

However, there is one single common denominator and that is

3) make a significant contribution to the U.S. economy by paying taxes or using American products, materials, or labor;

And the republicans want to lower taxes on Big business and be able to use non US. products, materials, or labor.

[ Edited: 23 August 2012 06:43 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 24 August 2012 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Under 500 employees!  LOL  Yeah that’s small!  That sounds more like medium to me.
When you have 400-500 employees and obviously millions in annual sales you need a good voice in Congress to lower taxes, keep regulations down, and keep unions out.  When a lobbyist is spewing their horse dung around DC it sounds so much better when they can say they are lobbying on behalf of small businesses.
Small businesses struggle so much!
Well if they didn’t ship their operations to China, Mexico or India by now, I bet they’re struggling!
How could they compete with operations that have?
I like it when politicians talk about giving breaks to Corps. that keep everything in the US.
I approach Home Depot or Wal-Mart with a product I have that’s made in America. They tell me get lost, we can buy that from the other guy who makes ‘em in China for half price.
Now I’m bankrupt, my 350 employees are out of work. The good news is my former employess will be able to shop at Wal-Mart with their welfare checks, or unemployment checks, or their wages from the even crappier job they had to take when I laid them off.
Thus perpetuating the cycle.
So even though I successfully lobbied to have legislation enacted to keep unions out of my factory, in the long run I still failed because I didn’t get to China fast enough.  Even though I successfully lobbied to be able to dump MEK and other solvents and paint wastes into the ground in the back of my plant, it didn’t matter.

[ Edited: 24 August 2012 12:47 PM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 24 August 2012 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Vyasma, I salute you for telling it like it is.

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