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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Posted: 19 August 2012 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Occam. - 19 August 2012 12:32 PM

Sorry, but I think that’s horse crap.  I’ve heard that argument often before (hidden motivation that can’t be demonstrated), and it’s the last resort of someone who can’t stand to admit being wrong. snake

Occam

If you say so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6dTU7KVpsg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mv8rfJmCPk

Regards
DL

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Posted: 19 August 2012 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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If he says so what?

What is giving a few dollars to a homeless person if not an altruistic act? How is that “self serving”?

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Posted: 19 August 2012 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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George - 19 August 2012 02:40 PM

If he says so what?

What is giving a few dollars to a homeless person if not an altruistic act? How is that “self serving”?

Do you not enjoy doing that?
That is one of the self-serving aspects. It feels good.
Not his need but you knowing you can fill it.

Did you view those clips?
That you scratch my back in the hope that my back will be scratched if I need it, is all a part of it.
I also benefit as at the same time by helping insure that my society is fed and that that poor man may not rob me some night out of desperation.

These are just flips off the top of my head but are viable reasons.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 19 August 2012 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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I’m driving in the left lane of a two lane on my side road.  Traffic is heavy.  We come to a sign that says “merge left”.  When I reach the merge point, everyone is taking turns, but, I have the advantage of being in the left lane. I have the choice of staying very close to the car in front of me or leaving enough space for the car beside me in the right lane to merge in front of me.  I choose the later action, and I don’t think, “what a good boy I am” or “I hope he does the same for me if we are ever in the reverse situation” or “I’m benefiting society.”  I do it without even thinking.  It’s just part of the morality of a human social group.

Occam

[ Edited: 19 August 2012 05:22 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 20 August 2012 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Greatest I am - 19 August 2012 03:58 PM
George - 19 August 2012 02:40 PM

If he says so what?

What is giving a few dollars to a homeless person if not an altruistic act? How is that “self serving”?

Do you not enjoy doing that?
That is one of the self-serving aspects. It feels good.
Not his need but you knowing you can fill it.

Did you view those clips?
That you scratch my back in the hope that my back will be scratched if I need it, is all a part of it.
I also benefit as at the same time by helping insure that my society is fed and that that poor man may not rob me some night out of desperation.

These are just flips off the top of my head but are viable reasons.

Regards
DL

Not every act of altruism is reciprocal. Giving money to a homeless person has certainly nothing to do with reciprocity. The fact that I may feel sorry for a person on the street or feel a few seconds of satisfaction after I help him are not self serving. They are serving the person in need. My emotional responses are the reason (not the goal) why I may engage in altruistic acts.

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Posted: 20 August 2012 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Occam. - 19 August 2012 05:20 PM

I’m driving in the left lane of a two lane on my side road.  Traffic is heavy.  We come to a sign that says “merge left”.  When I reach the merge point, everyone is taking turns, but, I have the advantage of being in the left lane. I have the choice of staying very close to the car in front of me or leaving enough space for the car beside me in the right lane to merge in front of me.  I choose the later action, and I don’t think, “what a good boy I am” or “I hope he does the same for me if we are ever in the reverse situation” or “I’m benefiting society.”  I do it without even thinking.  It’s just part of the morality of a human social group.

Occam

You do it because it’s more safe.

Also, not every driver behaves like that.

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Posted: 20 August 2012 05:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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George - 20 August 2012 05:29 AM
Greatest I am - 19 August 2012 03:58 PM
George - 19 August 2012 02:40 PM

If he says so what?

What is giving a few dollars to a homeless person if not an altruistic act? How is that “self serving”?

Do you not enjoy doing that?
That is one of the self-serving aspects. It feels good.
Not his need but you knowing you can fill it.

Did you view those clips?
That you scratch my back in the hope that my back will be scratched if I need it, is all a part of it.
I also benefit as at the same time by helping insure that my society is fed and that that poor man may not rob me some night out of desperation.

These are just flips off the top of my head but are viable reasons.

Regards
DL

Not every act of altruism is reciprocal. Giving money to a homeless person has certainly nothing to do with reciprocity. The fact that I may feel sorry for a person on the street or feel a few seconds of satisfaction after I help him are not self serving. They are serving the person in need. My emotional responses are the reason (not the goal) why I may engage in altruistic acts.

How is it not self serving if it gives you some satisfaction - however little?

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Posted: 20 August 2012 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I give money to the poor because I feel sorry for them. I sometimes feel happy for having done so, but not always. Sometimes I even get angry at myself thinking that I have given in again.

You are not going to respond saying that I am a masochist and that the pain of giving money to the poor is my way to satisfy me, are you?  smirk

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Posted: 20 August 2012 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Occam. - 19 August 2012 05:20 PM

I’m driving in the left lane of a two lane on my side road.  Traffic is heavy.  We come to a sign that says “merge left”.  When I reach the merge point, everyone is taking turns, but, I have the advantage of being in the left lane. I have the choice of staying very close to the car in front of me or leaving enough space for the car beside me in the right lane to merge in front of me.  I choose the later action, and I don’t think, “what a good boy I am” or “I hope he does the same for me if we are ever in the reverse situation” or “I’m benefiting society.”  I do it without even thinking.  It’s just part of the morality of a human social group.

Occam

As it should be but the benefits that you are not thinking of are still there.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 20 August 2012 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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George - 20 August 2012 05:29 AM
Greatest I am - 19 August 2012 03:58 PM
George - 19 August 2012 02:40 PM

If he says so what?

What is giving a few dollars to a homeless person if not an altruistic act? How is that “self serving”?

Do you not enjoy doing that?
That is one of the self-serving aspects. It feels good.
Not his need but you knowing you can fill it.

Did you view those clips?
That you scratch my back in the hope that my back will be scratched if I need it, is all a part of it.
I also benefit as at the same time by helping insure that my society is fed and that that poor man may not rob me some night out of desperation.

These are just flips off the top of my head but are viable reasons.

Regards
DL

Not every act of altruism is reciprocal. Giving money to a homeless person has certainly nothing to do with reciprocity. The fact that I may feel sorry for a person on the street or feel a few seconds of satisfaction after I help him are not self serving. They are serving the person in need. My emotional responses are the reason (not the goal) why I may engage in altruistic acts.

Key word you used. Satisfaction.
Satisfying yourself is self-serving. Right?

Regards
DL

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Posted: 20 August 2012 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Greatest I am - 20 August 2012 08:12 AM
George - 20 August 2012 05:29 AM
Greatest I am - 19 August 2012 03:58 PM
George - 19 August 2012 02:40 PM

If he says so what?

What is giving a few dollars to a homeless person if not an altruistic act? How is that “self serving”?

Do you not enjoy doing that?
That is one of the self-serving aspects. It feels good.
Not his need but you knowing you can fill it.

Did you view those clips?
That you scratch my back in the hope that my back will be scratched if I need it, is all a part of it.
I also benefit as at the same time by helping insure that my society is fed and that that poor man may not rob me some night out of desperation.

These are just flips off the top of my head but are viable reasons.

Regards
DL

Not every act of altruism is reciprocal. Giving money to a homeless person has certainly nothing to do with reciprocity. The fact that I may feel sorry for a person on the street or feel a few seconds of satisfaction after I help him are not self serving. They are serving the person in need. My emotional responses are the reason (not the goal) why I may engage in altruistic acts.

Key word you used. Satisfaction.
Satisfying yourself is self-serving. Right?

Regards
DL

See what I said in post #23. Sometimes I feel satisfied with having given money, sometimes I don’t.

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Posted: 20 August 2012 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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George - 20 August 2012 06:18 AM

I give money to the poor because I feel sorry for them. I sometimes feel happy for having done so, but not always. Sometimes I even get angry at myself thinking that I have given in again.

You are not going to respond saying that I am a masochist and that the pain of giving money to the poor is my way to satisfy me, are you?  smirk

Think of why most will give to the poor.
Satisfaction as you say for sure but also because we know that if the poor are pushed by condition ever the moral edge, they will take what we do not give willingly and those costs are higher than the altruistic alternative.

Think French revolution if not all revolutions.

Thyink of you as poor with a family to feed. Would you ignore your plight and let starvation set in or would you go and compete, beg, borrow or steal what you need to feed them?

I would beg borrow or steal.
When I was needy I did and when the system recognized this, the safety net caught me.
If I would have been in a country without such a net, then beg borrow or steal would have been my only option other than death.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 20 August 2012 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Greatest I am - 20 August 2012 08:20 AM

Think of why most will give to the poor.

Irrelevant. “Most” is not “everybody” and although many altruistic acts can indeed be based on egocentrism, nowhere does it imply that all are. I already told you I often give and receive nothing in return, not even self satisfaction. That said, though, I still think that how we feel while (or after) we engage in an altruistic act doesn’t negate that altruism is possible, and indeed true. I am just following the rules you made up. Either way, you haven’t proved your point.

[ Edited: 20 August 2012 08:47 AM by George ]
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Posted: 20 August 2012 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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I agree to disagree.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 20 August 2012 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Greatest I am - 20 August 2012 08:09 AM
Occam. - 19 August 2012 05:20 PM

I’m driving in the left lane of a two lane on my side road.  Traffic is heavy.  We come to a sign that says “merge left”.  When I reach the merge point, everyone is taking turns, but, I have the advantage of being in the left lane. I have the choice of staying very close to the car in front of me or leaving enough space for the car beside me in the right lane to merge in front of me.  I choose the later action, and I don’t think, “what a good boy I am” or “I hope he does the same for me if we are ever in the reverse situation” or “I’m benefiting society.”  I do it without even thinking.  It’s just part of the morality of a human social group.

Occam

As it should be but the benefits that you are not thinking of are still there.

Regards
DL

And you have just given the answer to your original question.  The answer is YES, one can.

Occam

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