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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Posted: 27 August 2012 12:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Of course it works over generations but it still produces the fittest and the worse and gives advantage to the fittest while the less fit will die off.

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DL

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Posted: 27 August 2012 05:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Greatest I am - 27 August 2012 12:57 PM

Of course it works over generations but it still produces the fittest and the worse and gives advantage to the fittest while the less fit will die off.

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DL

It simply produces the fittest to survive to reproduction within a given environment.  It just so happens that it has produced humans who have aconcept of good and evil.  If we want to determine whether we can “help but do evil”, (especially in our lifetime) we can’t rely on evolution to do that.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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TimB - 27 August 2012 05:30 PM
Greatest I am - 27 August 2012 12:57 PM

Of course it works over generations but it still produces the fittest and the worse and gives advantage to the fittest while the less fit will die off.

Regards
DL

It simply produces the fittest to survive to reproduction within a given environment.  It just so happens that it has produced humans who have aconcept of good and evil.  If we want to determine whether we can “help but do evil”, (especially in our lifetime) we can’t rely on evolution to do that.

Exactly and we cannot get away from evolution and competing for resources and those who lose out on those resources will die out.

You have to find a better system than evolution if you want to get rid of evil or even for you and I to stop doing evil.
For now, we cannot.

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DL

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Posted: 31 August 2012 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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Well, I don’t think we can ever get rid of “evil” but evolution is not the only way to select for nice people. Although evolution seems to be steering towards the selection of less violent people, for example, the process of natural selection under which it operates takes a long time. What we can do, however, and in fact are doing, is artificially select against violent behaviour. IOW, imprison violent people. Once in jail, criminals don’t get a chance to add to the gene pool.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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George - 31 August 2012 09:05 AM

Well, I don’t think we can ever get rid of “evil” but evolution is not the only way to select for nice people. Although evolution seems to be steering towards the selection of less violent people, for example, the process of natural selection under which it operates takes a long time. What we can do, however, and in fact are doing, is artificially select against violent behaviour. IOW, imprison violent people. Once in jail, criminals don’t get a chance to add to the gene pool.

It is nice to hear you say “evolution is not the only way to select for nice people”.  Are you evolving? smile

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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George - 31 August 2012 09:05 AM

Well, I don’t think we can ever get rid of “evil” but evolution is not the only way to select for nice people. Although evolution seems to be steering towards the selection of less violent people, for example, the process of natural selection under which it operates takes a long time. What we can do, however, and in fact are doing, is artificially select against violent behaviour. IOW, imprison violent people. Once in jail, criminals don’t get a chance to add to the gene pool.

This prompted me to think about another thread, but I will make it consistent with this one.  If homosexuality were evil (we don’t think it is, but if it were), and if it was completely genetically determined (though we don’t think it is), we could rely, to a great extent, on evolution to select for heterosexuals by making it completely acceptable for homosexuals, and, in fact, encouraging homosexuals, to pair up and get married.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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George - 31 August 2012 09:05 AM

Well, I don’t think we can ever get rid of “evil” but evolution is not the only way to select for nice people. Although evolution seems to be steering towards the selection of less violent people, for example, the process of natural selection under which it operates takes a long time. What we can do, however, and in fact are doing, is artificially select against violent behaviour. IOW, imprison violent people. Once in jail, criminals don’t get a chance to add to the gene pool.

So even though jailing people will not end competition in evolution, you think it a good idea!

Good philosophy. Not.
It would make man extinct if we ever did take competition out of evolution. Survival of the weakest would eventually kill off the fittest.

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DL

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Posted: 31 August 2012 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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TimB - 31 August 2012 09:12 AM
George - 31 August 2012 09:05 AM

Well, I don’t think we can ever get rid of “evil” but evolution is not the only way to select for nice people. Although evolution seems to be steering towards the selection of less violent people, for example, the process of natural selection under which it operates takes a long time. What we can do, however, and in fact are doing, is artificially select against violent behaviour. IOW, imprison violent people. Once in jail, criminals don’t get a chance to add to the gene pool.

It is nice to hear you say “evolution is not the only way to select for nice people”.  Are you evolving? smile

Actually, to be honest, I am not so sure that artificial selection is not a part natural selection. The whole “artificial selection” thing smells to like a symptom of our dualism illusion. (Same goes for sexual selection, for example.)

But I am still undecided on this issue and it doesn’t even belong in this thread, so I should probably let it be…

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Posted: 31 August 2012 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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Greatest I am - 31 August 2012 09:51 AM

So even though jailing people will not end competition in evolution, you think it a good idea!

I never said that. I care about what “is,” not what “ought” to be. That I leave up to people like yourself. I already know too much to be able judge others.  smile

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Posted: 31 August 2012 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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George - 31 August 2012 10:11 AM
Greatest I am - 31 August 2012 09:51 AM

So even though jailing people will not end competition in evolution, you think it a good idea!

I never said that. I care about what “is,” not what “ought” to be. That I leave up to people like yourself. I already know too much to be able judge others.  smile

Knowledge reduces one’s ability to judge!
Ok.

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DL

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Posted: 31 August 2012 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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NO, it reduces the desire to judge, and the recognition of the complexity of most things making judgement far harder than it appears to the less knowledgeable.

Occam

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Posted: 31 August 2012 10:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Occam. - 31 August 2012 10:30 AM

NO, it reduces the desire to judge, and the recognition of the complexity of most things making judgement far harder than it appears to the less knowledgeable.

Occam

Knowledge reduces the desire to judge.
So a judge who learns more will retire because he has lost the desire to judge.
Ok. Weird, but ok.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 31 August 2012 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Wrong, I was using “desire” in its emotional sense, that the less knowledgeable seem to almost get a joy from judging others.  I’m guessing that their unconscious reasoning goes something like this:  The people around me and my job seem to point to the fact that I’m inadequate, and I don’t like to feel inadequate, so if I can put down (judge) other people, I can see that they are worse than me so I’m not as inadequate as I thought.

Occam

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Posted: 31 August 2012 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Occam. - 31 August 2012 10:40 AM

Wrong, I was using “desire” in its emotional sense, that the less knowledgeable seem to almost get a joy from judging others.  I’m guessing that their unconscious reasoning goes something like this:  The people around me and my job seem to point to the fact that I’m inadequate, and I don’t like to feel inadequate, so if I can put down (judge) other people, I can see that they are worse than me so I’m not as inadequate as I thought.

Occam

All have a desire to be the fittest in the crowd.
Thank evolution for that. Without it we would not be here.
We are all selfish and should just admit it. It is a good and necessary gene.

Our selfish nature must express itself and it drives our evolution.
It should be embraced and directed. Not denied.

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DL

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Posted: 31 August 2012 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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Nah, I’ve learned over the years that I’m adequate.  It doesn’t matter to me when I run into someone who’s smarter, stronger, better looking, etc. as long as I’m satisfied with myself.

Occam

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