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speaking of Global Heat Engine - have you seen the latest Ocean study?
Posted: 22 August 2012 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Apparently one of the most simple and effective things that could be done is to insure that beef cattle are fed on grass.

http://soilcarboncoalition.org/

Of course, this will never be politically viable as long as Iowa continues to hold the first Presidential political primary.  Corn is King.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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And one of the most effective things we could do is to get people to switch to a mostly vegetarian diet. Cow belches are a major greenhouse gas emitter.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 22 August 2012 05:40 PM

Oh lordie, rolleyes lordie rolleyes  good ol Mars,
And when did they build the Yellow Brick Road to take all this crap to Mars to start our tinkering?
We spent 2.5 billion $ to get Curiosity up there.

sick  This country has been weened on way the hell too much Sci Fi and Hollywood.

Curiosity cost so much because it was a “one off” design.  Had NASA gone into production with them and churned out dozens more, the cost per unit would have been much lower.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Coldheart Tucker - 22 August 2012 07:39 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 22 August 2012 05:40 PM

Oh lordie, rolleyes lordie rolleyes  good ol Mars,
And when did they build the Yellow Brick Road to take all this crap to Mars to start our tinkering?
We spent 2.5 billion $ to get Curiosity up there.

sick  This country has been weened on way the hell too much Sci Fi and Hollywood.

Curiosity cost so much because it was a “one off” design.  Had NASA gone into production with them and churned out dozens more, the cost per unit would have been much lower.

Actually we have two fully functional Curiosity rovers. One on Mars, the other on Earth where a driver drives the one on Mars.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Write4U - 22 August 2012 06:10 PM

CT
How do you get enough fresh water into the area to keep the trees, etc., you’ve planted there going until weather patterns shift so that human supplied water is no longer necessary?

How about dragging icebergs to coastal areas and piping fresh water into the deserts directly? The increasing amount of melting polar ice is destabilizing the polar oceans in several ways such as temperature, ocean currents, salinity, rising ocean levels. By removing these destabilizing factors we help the polar regions stabilize and at the same time creating more vegetation in the deserts. Vegetation may reduce air pollution by as much as 70 %. Add the cooling effects of vegetation and we have a model for action.

That’s an idea, but how do we convince the various governments involved that the ‘bergs won’t become a hazard for navigation?  Will the nations involved allow us to route the piping through their country and into the country of their current despicable enemy?  How much water can we expect the locals to steal?  How difficult is it going to be to maintain the piping system?  How are you going to offset the CO2 produced by the ships towing the ‘bergs?  How are you going to offset the CO2 produced by manufacturing all the equipment needed to undertake this operation?  How long does it take for the effects to kick in?  Those are all important questions which need to be answered.  I know that folks tried to tow small ‘bergs in the ‘70s or ‘80s as a test program, but it didn’t work out very well.  Someone else suggested floating giant bags filled with fresh water (since it floats in salt water) and using those to aid drought stricken areas.  Not sure how those tests went.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Write4U - 22 August 2012 07:45 PM
Coldheart Tucker - 22 August 2012 07:39 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 22 August 2012 05:40 PM

Oh lordie, rolleyes lordie rolleyes  good ol Mars,
And when did they build the Yellow Brick Road to take all this crap to Mars to start our tinkering?
We spent 2.5 billion $ to get Curiosity up there.

sick  This country has been weened on way the hell too much Sci Fi and Hollywood.

Curiosity cost so much because it was a “one off” design.  Had NASA gone into production with them and churned out dozens more, the cost per unit would have been much lower.

Actually we have two fully functional Curiosity rovers. One on Mars, the other on Earth where a driver drives the one on Mars.

If you’re going to be pedantic about it, then it needs to be pointed out that the two of them are not identical.  The one on Earth is designed to be disassembled so that NASA engineers can troubleshoot problems with the one on Mars.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Coldheart Tucker - 22 August 2012 07:49 PM
Write4U - 22 August 2012 06:10 PM

CT
How do you get enough fresh water into the area to keep the trees, etc., you’ve planted there going until weather patterns shift so that human supplied water is no longer necessary?

How about dragging icebergs to coastal areas and piping fresh water into the deserts directly? The increasing amount of melting polar ice is destabilizing the polar oceans in several ways such as temperature, ocean currents, salinity, rising ocean levels. By removing these destabilizing factors we help the polar regions stabilize and at the same time creating more vegetation in the deserts. Vegetation may reduce air pollution by as much as 70 %. Add the cooling effects of vegetation and we have a model for action.

That’s an idea, but how do we convince the various governments involved that the ‘bergs won’t become a hazard for navigation?  Will the nations involved allow us to route the piping through their country and into the country of their current despicable enemy?  How much water can we expect the locals to steal?  How difficult is it going to be to maintain the piping system?  How are you going to offset the CO2 produced by the ships towing the ‘bergs?  How are you going to offset the CO2 produced by manufacturing all the equipment needed to undertake this operation?  How long does it take for the effects to kick in?  Those are all important questions which need to be answered.  I know that folks tried to tow small ‘bergs in the ‘70s or ‘80s as a test program, but it didn’t work out very well.  Someone else suggested floating giant bags filled with fresh water (since it floats in salt water) and using those to aid drought stricken areas.  Not sure how those tests went.

Salient points, but a terra forming and colonization of Mars would necessarily demand the cooperation of the worlds countries also.
All the other questions remain the same for a Mars adventure. How about thousands of rockets emitting CO2 at every level of our atmosphere and stratosphere? How difficult will it be to maintain an agricultural system on Mars without a sufficient population?

But one thing that can be answered definitively. It would take decades (if not centuries) less to do regional terraforming on Earth than planetary terraforming on Mars.
As to results? Once installed results can be seen in a few seasons, just like a forest recovery after a devastating forest fire. And if we include some kind of edible vegetation for food, are we just looking to feed the colonists or export food from Mars to Earth? Any vegetation that can be used for food on Earth would be immediately available.

The failure of the initial attempts to move fresh water from the polar regions is due to cost v profit analysis. For the same reason I cannot see any organizations but governments starting such an huge enterprise on Mars.
But we are already here, we have the resources, we have a considerable knowledge of earth’s biosphere, we have millions of acres of arid but readily accessible deserts. We have active and ongoing efforts on very small scales.

Why on Earth would we want to go and do all these things on Mars? Lets save the Earth, starting tomorrow! Jump in your truck and go look at,

1 Sahara desert, Northern Africa, 9.10 million km2
2 Arabian desert, South-west Asia, 2.33 million km2
3 Gobi desert, Central Asia, 1.29 million km2
4 Patagonian desert, Argentina / Chile, 673,000 km2
5 Great Basin desert, United States, 492,000 km2

Note how conveniently these are located on different continents which means these terraforming activities can be done simultaneously, and distributing the beneficial results on the biosphere as well as benefitting the majority of the earths population in a very short time.

[ Edited: 22 August 2012 09:27 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 22 August 2012 08:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Coldheart Tucker - 22 August 2012 07:51 PM
Write4U - 22 August 2012 07:45 PM
Coldheart Tucker - 22 August 2012 07:39 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 22 August 2012 05:40 PM

Oh lordie, rolleyes lordie rolleyes  good ol Mars,
And when did they build the Yellow Brick Road to take all this crap to Mars to start our tinkering?
We spent 2.5 billion $ to get Curiosity up there.

sick  This country has been weened on way the hell too much Sci Fi and Hollywood.

Curiosity cost so much because it was a “one off” design.  Had NASA gone into production with them and churned out dozens more, the cost per unit would have been much lower.

Actually we have two fully functional Curiosity rovers. One on Mars, the other on Earth where a driver drives the one on Mars.

If you’re going to be pedantic about it, then it needs to be pointed out that the two of them are not identical.  The one on Earth is designed to be disassembled so that NASA engineers can troubleshoot problems with the one on Mars.

So you agree it is an identical copy? The female scientist driver said so. Curiosity on Mars is only partially autonomous, it is driven by an earthbound driver.

Our initial drives are going to be in the much more ‘do exactly what we tell you to do’ mode,” Biesiadecki said. “So that will be, ‘Drive this many meters; stop, turn this much; take an image; drive this many more meters.’”

To account for the time difference, Cusiosity on Mars only drives a very short distance as directed by the driver inside the Curiosity on earth, then stops and waits for the next instruction from the earthbound driver after analysis of data
gathered of the terrain and possible obstacles, then proceeds as per instruction for another short distance, stops and waits for new instructions, etc. They even showed the earthbound Curiosity in a Mars like environment (kinda like a sandbox) with different types of soil, different size rocks, jagged edges of potentially deep crevices. They showed a potential problem with wheels sinking too deep in lose soil. The driver would actually experiment with best possible extraction maneuvres. The Mars Curiosity is remotely driven from earth by a fully engaged driver in a realtime physical vehicle. The only difference is that this can be done only incrementally due to time difference.

[ Edited: 23 August 2012 03:32 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 23 August 2012 02:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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NewsFlash,

West Nile Virus alert.!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/west-nile-virus-track-worst-year/story?id=17058550&cid=ESPNheadline

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Write4U - 23 August 2012 02:08 AM

NewsFlash,

West Nile Virus alert.!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/west-nile-virus-track-worst-year/story?id=17058550&cid=ESPNheadline

Yeah, I am close to ground zero, here in Texas.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Coldheart Tucker - 22 August 2012 05:36 PM
DarronS - 22 August 2012 05:15 PM
Coldheart Tucker - 22 August 2012 05:09 PM

So, in short, what you’re saying is that you don’t care what the experts say about the matter, you’re sticking with your own personal dogma on the subject.

I’ll take observed data over unnamed scientists any time. For every expert scientist you can cite saying terraforming Mars is doable I’ll bet a bottle of Irish Whiskey that I can find five who say it is unfeasible.

Name five then.  I named one (Sagan), so you name five.

It was a rhetorical comment. I am not going to play link wars with you. I provided a link to a NASA page so you could read for yourself why we’ll never be able to terraform an atmosphere on Mars. Apparently you’d rather accuse me of dogmatic thinking than take the time to educate yourself. I find that especially ironic seeing as how you’re using the argument from authority fallacy instead of actually considering the evidence. Perhaps you are too emotionally invested in your science-fiction driven thinking to step back and look at how much time, energy, capital and cooperation it would take to even begin terraforming Mars. The game will be over on Earth before we could start experimenting with Mars.

DarronSAs for using Mars to test terraforming on Earth, we do not have enough time. We should have started reducing our carbon footprint 30 years ago to avoid catastrophic climate change. As for Lovelock, he is in the minority. James Hansen said things are worse than he expected.

Coldheart TruckerActually, you’re wrong.  Lovelock was far more pessimistic than Hansen is now.  Lovelock’s view has shifted to be more in line with Hansen’s than it was before.

OK. I should have looked up Lovelock’s recent views before making that comment.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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When I heard about the record high of West Nile the other day, I immediately thought that the victims should be counted not only as victims of the disease, but also as victims of GW. I don’t know if or when people are going to start dying in huge numbers as a result GW raising the sea levels, but I am sure smaller catastrophes like the West Nile virus outbreak will become more common. And the scariest thing of all is that we may not even be sure where GW is going to strike next.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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George - 23 August 2012 06:32 AM

When I heard about the record high of West Nile the other day, I immediately thought that the victims should be counted not only as victims of the disease, but also as victims of GW. I don’t know if or when people are going to start dying in huge numbers as a result GW raising the sea levels, but I am sure smaller catastrophes like the West Nile virus outbreak will become more common. And the scariest thing of all is that we may not even be sure where GW is going to strike next.

Nobody predicted Dallas would be an early GW bullseye.

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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DarronS - 23 August 2012 06:35 AM
George - 23 August 2012 06:32 AM

When I heard about the record high of West Nile the other day, I immediately thought that the victims should be counted not only as victims of the disease, but also as victims of GW. I don’t know if or when people are going to start dying in huge numbers as a result GW raising the sea levels, but I am sure smaller catastrophes like the West Nile virus outbreak will become more common. And the scariest thing of all is that we may not even be sure where GW is going to strike next.

Nobody predicted Dallas would be an early GW bullseye.

Clearly God is punishing Dallas for allowing George W. Bush to live there. ;(

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Posted: 23 August 2012 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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George - 23 August 2012 06:32 AM

When I heard about the record high of West Nile the other day, I immediately thought that the victims should be counted not only as victims of the disease, but also as victims of GW. I don’t know if or when people are going to start dying in huge numbers as a result GW raising the sea levels, but I am sure smaller catastrophes like the West Nile virus outbreak will become more common. And the scariest thing of all is that we may not even be sure where GW is going to strike next.

Earlier, we discussed Prof. Bartlett’s proposition that if humans don’t select a course of action, nature surely will and a zero growth in population will eventually happen.
You mentioned at that time, this may not be a gradually tapering off in birthrate and a gradually increase in death rate, but more like from human caused natural cataclysmic events. IOW, a sudden adjustment in the numbers.

Looks like you were right George. Somewhere along the line a warming environment will create another superbug which will cause millions to die and the growth rate will be reduced (at least temporary) to a negative number.

[ Edited: 23 August 2012 06:22 PM by Write4U ]
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