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Why would a Christian want to change the world?
Posted: 15 September 2012 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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I wonder how it would go over in the christian community if some Islamic psycho freak made a movie which claims Jesus was a sex-crazed bastard who pimped Mary Magdelane and his mother, Mary, all of the disciples a gay cadre who enjoyed killing babies, and so on?

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Posted: 15 September 2012 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Occam. - 15 September 2012 12:34 PM

I wonder how it would go over in the christian community if some Islamic psycho freak made a movie which claims Jesus was a sex-crazed bastard who pimped Mary Magdelane and his mother, Mary, all of the disciples a gay cadre who enjoyed killing babies, and so on?

Occam

If they reacted the way Muslims do, they’d be pulling Muslims out on the street and lopping off their heads. Then later claim that’s it’s just the 1% of Christians who do this.

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Posted: 15 September 2012 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Occam. - 15 September 2012 12:34 PM

I wonder how it would go over in the christian community if some Islamic psycho freak made a movie which claims Jesus was a sex-crazed bastard who pimped Mary Magdelane and his mother, Mary, all of the disciples a gay cadre who enjoyed killing babies, and so on?

Occam

A muslim would have to be psychotic to do that, as Jesus is a revered prophet in Islam.

It would be interesting to see the reaction that such a movie would get. (Not that I would want to chance someone getting killed over it.)

I wonder how it would go over in the Islamic community if someone made a movie portraying Mohammed as a really great human being with only positive and admirable characteristics.  (I fear it would still not go over well, as Islam prohibits any representations of Mohamed).

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Posted: 15 September 2012 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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In fairness, I have never seen Muslims burn a bible. They burn flags, buildings, people,......but never a bible!  I find that actually an interesting juxtaposition between Muslims and Christians.

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Posted: 15 September 2012 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Write4U - 15 September 2012 04:39 PM

In fairness, I have never seen Muslims burn a bible. They burn flags, buildings, people,......but never a bible!  I find that actually an interesting juxtaposition between Muslims and Christians.

I haven’t seen you post recently.  Glad you’re back. 

Muslims don’t believe in the Bible, per se, but do believe it was originally derived from authentic revelation from God, and just got mixed up or misinterpreted, somehow, along the way.  The major prophets in the Bible are prophets that Muslims accept also. Jehova referred to in the Bible, is the same deity as Allah.

So it might seem irreverent to a muslim to burn a book (even though it has inaccuracies) that is about its own God and prophets.

Christians, however, preemptively, disbelieve in the Koran, and few have probably ever tried to read it.  Just knowing that the Koran denies the divinity of Christ, is enough, I expect, for Christians to dismiss the Koran as a valid holy book.

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Posted: 15 September 2012 06:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Thank you Tim, was keeping up but waiting for something to get my teeth into.

I posed this question once on another forum.
“If there is only one God, is Allah the same God as the Christian God, but viewed from a different perspective”?  The answer was “No, the only true God is described in the Bible”.

Of course Muslims call Christians and Jews “infidels” even as they recognize that all three religions have one “common denominator”, the same God.

It always comes back to “one man’s religion is another man’s witchcraft”.

Go figure.

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Posted: 15 September 2012 06:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Write4U - 15 September 2012 06:34 PM

Thank you Tim, was keeping up but waiting for something to get my teeth into.

I posed this question once on another forum.
“If there is only one God, is Allah the same God as the Christian God, but viewed from a different perspective”?  The answer was “No, the only true God is described in the Bible”.

Of course Muslims call Christians and Jews “infidels” even as they recognize that all three religions have one “common denominator”, the same God.

It always comes back to “one man’s religion is another man’s witchcraft”.

Go figure.

From the muslim perspective Jehova is the same God as Allah.  Muslims do not believe in the Trinity or the Divinity of Christ at all.  They believe that Allah is the one God.  But Jehova is Allah that Moses, Abraham, etc, communicated with. 

From my perspective it is all bunk (including witchcraft)—non-benign fairy tales, because it is presented as truth.

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Posted: 15 September 2012 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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TimB - 15 September 2012 06:42 PM
Write4U - 15 September 2012 06:34 PM

Thank you Tim, was keeping up but waiting for something to get my teeth into.

I posed this question once on another forum.
“If there is only one God, is Allah the same God as the Christian God, but viewed from a different perspective”?  The answer was “No, the only true God is described in the Bible”.

Of course Muslims call Christians and Jews “infidels” even as they recognize that all three religions have one “common denominator”, the same God.

It always comes back to “one man’s religion is another man’s witchcraft”.

Go figure.

From the muslim perspective Jehova is the same God as Allah.  Muslims do not believe in the Trinity or the Divinity of Christ at all.  They believe that Allah is the one God.  But Jehova is Allah that Moses, Abraham, etc, communicated with. 

From my perspective it is all bunk (including witchcraft)—non-benign fairy tales, because it is presented as truth.

And condones, if not fosters, violence.

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Posted: 15 September 2012 08:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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In fairness, I have never seen Muslims burn a bible. They burn flags, buildings, people,......but never a bible!  I find that actually an interesting juxtaposition between Muslims and Christians.


For that matter, outside of Terry Jones and his wacko xtian cult in Florida, I don’t recall anyone else bothering to burn a Koran or deface any other religious book. Most fundies don’t bother to study other religions including the other abrahamic beliefs. Their leaders often condemn non fundie religions by comparing or contrasting them with their own, but for the most part shun them as heretical and go on with their lives in a kind of “not one of us pod under the bed"type of behavior. actually they’re too busy attempting to steal converts from the other mainstream religions. Mormons are notorious for this and it may account for the fact that it is one of the fastest if not the fastest growing xtian-like beliefs in the U.S. also, as comical as the book of Mormon is in content, I don’t recall anyone or any mob burning it. And as Tim stated, Americans by in large no nothing about the Koran and very little of the content of their own holy book so why bother even looking up a copy of the Koran, let alone taking the time to burn one to prove a point. Most of our riots today are political. We’re more heated over who controls the gov’t. And neither side would even think about burning a copy of the Constitution.


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Posted: 15 September 2012 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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If Terry “Scumbag” Jones and his crew of nitwits are only burning English translations of the Koran, they are not burning the real deal anyway.

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Posted: 15 September 2012 10:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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I seem to recall our soldiers burning Korans in Arab countries. Perhaps not intentionally or for purpose of insult, but it has happened more than once.

Mind, I am not defending Muslims. After all they burn each others temples, including worshippers. Perhaps this is an indictment against all religions which condone violence of any kind in the name of God.

[ Edited: 15 September 2012 10:28 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 September 2012 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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I seem to recall our soldiers burning Korans in Arab countries. Perhaps not intentionally or for purpose of insult, but it has happened more than once.

Mind, I am not defending Muslims. After all they burn each others temples, including worshippers. Perhaps this is an indictment against all religions which condone violence of any kind in the name of God.


You hit the nail on the head here Write, the Thomas Mann quote comes to mind, where they burn books….. . I know this was said in jest, but are the Jains the only truly peace advocates who really practice what they preach and always have? I’ve never really studied them and am looking for a lazy way out here. Any posters who are Jainist?


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Posted: 16 September 2012 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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And there was the case of the young woman who was severely punished for burning a koran, then it came out that the next door Imam had hidden it in her trash so she would be blamed. 

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Posted: 16 September 2012 10:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Dom1978 - 20 August 2012 12:34 PM

There are some things in Christianity that are clearly incoherent, such as the idea
that God is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful at the same time.

These types of arguments are almost always weak.  Playing omni-attributes against each other doesn’t result in logical contradictions unless the omni-attributes are assumed to encompass logically impossible cases.  The omni attributes of goodness and omnipotence serve as an example.  If god could do anything then god could do evil.  It’s pretty obvious that a doctrine that teaches multiple omni-attributes implicitly imagines them reconciled with one another, isn’t it?  Theologians ages ago developed doctrines to help describe the omni-attributes as they supposed they would manifest in a single being.

Note, for example, that if we define “omnipotent” to confer the ability to do absolutely anything regardless of whether it is logically possible the acceptance of that premise negates the conclusion that such omnipotence is possible.

P1 God can do anything including the logically possible
P2 It is logically impossible to create a rock too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift
Therefore,
C:  God can create a rock too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift

If you start with absurd premisses then absurd conclusions follow (that is, they follow logically).  Failing to heed theologians’ conceptions of omni attributes results in straw men.

But there (are) other things that just strike you as slightly odd, even though it’s difficult to
find a clear contradiction. The one I’m thinking of here is the idea that Christians ought to try to create a better world, even though everything is supposedly going according to God’s plan anyway. Try as I might, I just can’t get my head around it. 

There’s more than one theological conception of predestination.  Meticulous predestination is distinctive to Calvinism.  It shouldn’t be any tougher to wrestle with than your impression that you make decisions despite a belief in universal causal determinism (I’m not saying you believe that, it’s just an example that we might easily find in a population of atheists or skeptics).

So on the one hand the Christian will say that massacres, natural disasters, children dying of cancer and so on are really all for the best from God’s eternal standpoint. For example, they may suggest that through these things more people will be saved in the long run. And after all, this life is of little importance compared with an eternity of bliss with Jesus.

That’s a bit like saying that the nihilist might as well commit suicide because everything’s ultimately meaningless.  But nihilism doesn’t command that, does it?  Neither does god instruct inaction. On the other hand, I’m not a Calvinist so I’m not going to go wild defending it.  grin 

Yet at the same time they will say that they are called to help the poor and make the world a better place. But they’ve already admitted that on their world view God alone knows what will be for the best in the long run.

I think they’re counting on God being smart enough to figure out what will be best while including the actions he commands of his followers.  grin

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Posted: 20 September 2012 05:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Hi Bryan. Yeah, I take your point about the omni properties and logical possibility, but I still think there’s a big problem with that particular issue of God being completely just and completely merciful. Perhaps you could address that particular problem.   

What you seem to be suggesting here is that some Christians could just bite the bullet and admit that they can’t trust their moral intuitions about what’s right and wrong, and so they just have to go with what the Bible commands. However, there are some huge problems with doing that. First of all, the bible isn’t clear or consistent about things like politics,
capitalism, divorce, war, marriage, and all the rest. Secondly, we’ve got all these new moral problems in bio-ethics that aren’t mentioned or even hinted at in the BIble. So the idea of just forgetting about your moral intuitions and going with the Bible is a complete non-starter as far as I can see.

So the Christian would seem to be in an impossible position where he has absolutely no idea what’s right or wrong as he looks around the world, and on top of that the Bible isn’t very clear on ethics.

[ Edited: 20 September 2012 05:17 AM by Dom1978 ]
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