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Posted: 27 August 2012 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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One of Allah’s 99 names must not be Great Communicator.


Not unless one of his names is Ronald Reagan, peace be upon him and his supply-side economics!

 

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Posted: 28 August 2012 05:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Write4U - 27 August 2012 04:58 PM

Why do Muslims always bestow peace on Muhammad, while bestowing hatred on the rest of us uninitiated? Is that not one of the commands of Muhammad?

 

Yes.

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
He (blessings of prayer may Allah bless him ten)

This desire to increase the gain recognized
And love and respect for the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

God says in the Holy Qur’an

(56) Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [Allah to grant him] peace
(57) Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment

Narrated Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him):
Allah’s Apostle said:

For every prophet there is one (special invocation (that will not be rejected) with which he appeals (to Allah)
and I want to keep such an invocation for interceding
for my followers in the Hereafter.

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 75, Number 317e


Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu’ba (may Allah be pleased with him):
The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to pray so much that his feet used to become edematous or swollen, and when he was asked as to why he prays so much, he would say,
“Shall I not be a thankful slave (to Allah)?”

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Number 478

And the prophets in Islam all are equal
The Muslim says the prophets of Allah peace be upon them
Respect to all of them
God says in the Holy Qur’an

(285) The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.”

(136) Say, [O believers], “We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him. ”

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Posted: 28 August 2012 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Submit in faith to Allah, the Avenger of Evil, oh believers of dogma, so that His justice will reign down on the infidels who have wronged you. So that one day all Muslim territories will be united under one great Islamic caliphate, and the ruling infidels will be replaced with sincere Muslims who will rule according to the Shar’ah.

(Screw western ideals of Democracy and Humanism.)  Allah has prepared a severe punishment for the infidels.

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Posted: 28 August 2012 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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TimB - 28 August 2012 12:42 PM

Allah has prepared a severe punishment for the infidels.

Sounds like Allah doesn’t understand compatibilism. grin

Stephen

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Posted: 28 August 2012 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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StephenLawrence - 28 August 2012 12:56 PM
TimB - 28 August 2012 12:42 PM

Allah has prepared a severe punishment for the infidels.

Sounds like Allah doesn’t understand compatibilism. grin

Stephen

....or democracy.

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Posted: 28 August 2012 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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StephenLawrence - 28 August 2012 12:56 PM
TimB - 28 August 2012 12:42 PM

Allah has prepared a severe punishment for the infidels.

Sounds like Allah doesn’t understand compatibilism. grin

Stephen

Well, if you want to submit and be a slave to Allah, then you can exercise your free will with no problem.  For Allah is Exceedingly Merciful.  If, however, you choose to follow the suggestions of Shaytan, Allah will kick your ass, so to speak, eventually.  Allah is Patient.

[ Edited: 28 August 2012 01:10 PM by TimB ]
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Posted: 28 August 2012 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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asanta - 28 August 2012 01:05 PM
StephenLawrence - 28 August 2012 12:56 PM
TimB - 28 August 2012 12:42 PM

Allah has prepared a severe punishment for the infidels.

Sounds like Allah doesn’t understand compatibilism. grin

Stephen

....or democracy.

To be fair, it is not impossible that Sharia might someday be adapted and modified so that it could be reconciled with contemporary democratic values and international standards of justice.  But forgive me if I don’t trust that that will ever happen, in our generation or the next.

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Posted: 28 August 2012 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Quoting TimB:

Allah is Patient.

I believe you left out a word after “is”.  We should probably insert the article, “a” and quite possibly also, “mental”.

Occam

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Posted: 28 August 2012 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Occam. - 28 August 2012 01:58 PM

Quoting TimB:

Allah is Patient.

I believe you left out a word after “is”.  We should probably insert the article, “a” and quite possibly also, “mental”.

Occam

Occam, you are one funny infidel.
(I don’t think Allah has a sense of humor.  At least none of his 99 names suggest that he does.)

[ Edited: 28 August 2012 02:10 PM by TimB ]
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Posted: 28 August 2012 05:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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To be fair, it is not impossible that Sharia might someday be adapted and modified so that it could be reconciled with contemporary democratic values and international standards of justice.  But forgive me if I don’t trust that that will ever happen, in our generation or the next.


Actually Tim, it looks like democracy is having a dampening effect on radical sharia law, case in point, the mosque in Mufreesboro, Tn. Where a recent court case allowed for the mosque to be built. The imam there explained that Islam(at least the Amercanized version) is a religion that seeks a peaceful coexistence with the nonmuslim neighbors who didn’t want them there in the first place. Many members of the local community are actually defending their right to build and worship in the new mosque recently after several attacks of vandalism to warn them away. It seems to be a matter of democracy effecting religion in a positive way. Now if that could only be exported to the middle east then this whole idea of slavery and servitude to a god might become vestigial to their religion. Maybe then they would evolve to become freethinkers. It would sure save a lot of lives. Of course culture pays a big role there too; I don’t discount tribalism as a motivating factor in the killing of innocents.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 28 August 2012 11:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 28 August 2012 05:29 PM

To be fair, it is not impossible that Sharia might someday be adapted and modified so that it could be reconciled with contemporary democratic values and international standards of justice.  But forgive me if I don’t trust that that will ever happen, in our generation or the next.


Actually Tim, it looks like democracy is having a dampening effect on radical sharia law, case in point, the mosque in Mufreesboro, Tn. Where a recent court case allowed for the mosque to be built. The imam there explained that Islam(at least the Amercanized version) is a religion that seeks a peaceful coexistence with the nonmuslim neighbors who didn’t want them there in the first place. Many members of the local community are actually defending their right to build and worship in the new mosque recently after several attacks of vandalism to warn them away. It seems to be a matter of democracy effecting religion in a positive way. Now if that could only be exported to the middle east then this whole idea of slavery and servitude to a god might become vestigial to their religion. Maybe then they would evolve to become freethinkers. It would sure save a lot of lives. Of course culture pays a big role there too; I don’t discount tribalism as a motivating factor in the killing of innocents.


Cap’t Jack

In the society that Muslim’s ultimately seek (within the context of Islamic teachings), (societies governed by Sharia law), whatever kind of democracy is formed will have to be adapted to Sharia.  There may be room for iinterpretation within Sharia for modern democratic ideals and standards of justice to be incorporated, but judging by what happens now under Sharia law, there would be so far to go, that it seems unlikely.

That is not to say, as you point out, that Muslims who live in secular democracies, can’t or don’t accomodate, in practice, to the ideals of those democracies.  But accomodating to secular democracies is not what the devout Muslim ultimately wants.

Any society that has a vast majority Muslim population is at risk of coming under Sharia imposed government (however Sharia is interpreted there). I maintain that secularism, contemporary ideals of human rights, freedom of religion, and particularly freedom from religion, are and will be in serious jeapordy in such societies. I pick on Islam (more than other religions), because it is the fastest growing religion, and also because by virtue of its structure it represents the greatest potential threat, IMO, to humanistic ideals. 

RE:culltural effects.  Muslims who live in cultures where they become inculcated with modern ideals of human rights, democracy, and justice, would, I think be more prone to interpret Sharia to adapt in that direction.  But this is up to Muslims. Outsiders cannot effectively export democratic ideals to Muslim countries. Perhaps Muslims who have developed such ideals can, but I’m not holding my breath, and your children should not hold their breath for such a contingency to come to fruition.

As far as Muslims becoming freethinkers, I think that this is fundamentally antithetic to Islam.  A Muslim is by definition one who surrenders to Allah.

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Posted: 29 August 2012 04:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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RE:culltural effects.  Muslims who live in cultures where they become inculcated with modern ideals of human rights, democracy, and justice, would, I think be more prone to interpret Sharia to adapt in that direction.  But this is up to Muslims. Outsiders cannot effectively export democratic ideals to Muslim countries. Perhaps Muslims who have developed such ideals can, but I’m not holding my breath, and your children should not hold their breath for such a contingency to come to fruition.

Once again my greatest weakness is optimism, if you can call it that and I have no doubt that you’re correct in your assertion about Islam in it’s original setting, ie large Islamic countries. But consider this; if what you’re saying is true and Islam in it’s modern form is bound to continue it’s self perpetuating “holy war” against non-believers resulting in bloody conflicts, then the conflict never ends until one side or the other is enslaved or dead. If that be the ultimate case then why not completely destroy or continually occupy and deprogram the young as we did the ex-nazis immediately after World War II? And I’m not advocating a unilateral action here but a combined effort by the European powers. If because of it’s very nature, conflicting with the human right of free thought,Islam will always be an enemy of the West. That’s a pretty pessimistic picture of the future. I hope the scenario you describe and BTW it seems to be happening to a small degree with the so called Arab Spring, that the seed of democratic thought takes hold or many more soldiers not to mention countless civilians will die over a religious belief.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 29 August 2012 04:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 28 August 2012 05:29 PM

To be fair, it is not impossible that Sharia might someday be adapted and modified so that it could be reconciled with contemporary democratic values and international standards of justice.  But forgive me if I don’t trust that that will ever happen, in our generation or the next.


Actually Tim, it looks like democracy is having a dampening effect on radical sharia law, case in point, the mosque in Mufreesboro, Tn. Where a recent court case allowed for the mosque to be built. The imam there explained that Islam(at least the Amercanized version) is a religion that seeks a peaceful coexistence with the nonmuslim neighbors who didn’t want them there in the first place. Many members of the local community are actually defending their right to build and worship in the new mosque recently after several attacks of vandalism to warn them away. It seems to be a matter of democracy effecting religion in a positive way. Now if that could only be exported to the middle east then this whole idea of slavery and servitude to a god might become vestigial to their religion. Maybe then they would evolve to become freethinkers. It would sure save a lot of lives. Of course culture pays a big role there too; I don’t discount tribalism as a motivating factor in the killing of innocents.


Cap’t Jack


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frvjuaea22w

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Posted: 29 August 2012 05:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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‘submission’ and ‘free will’ are contradictory terms.

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Posted: 29 August 2012 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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asanta - 29 August 2012 05:33 AM

‘submission’ and ‘free will’ are contradictory terms.

Not necessarily. Depends on submission to what. There is one exception in which it’s not a contradiction in terms. And then it is ‘free will’ par excellence.

Sorry, your fault. You used ‘free will’...  tongue rolleye

We can discuss this in the free will thread.  LOL

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