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Do you punish or reward to the human in the grave?
Posted: 05 September 2012 07:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Reason is probably the wrong tool here, Tim. As House said, (paraphrasing), if the religious could reason, they would not be religious to begin with.

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Posted: 05 September 2012 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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dougsmith - 05 September 2012 06:16 AM
sony - 05 September 2012 05:31 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrSKNBhvApQ

sony, this is a forum for discussion and inquiry, not for posting long quotes, monologues and blind links to YouTube videos. Refusal to engage in good-faith discussion is a form of trolling, and is against the rules. Continued rule violation will lead to banning. Thanks.

  Funny thing is, if you ban this guy (or any religious fanatic) you’ll actually embolden him. He’ll think of it as a form of persecution, which will in turn make him happy (suffering persecution makes them feel closer to their prophet).  I think it’s best to just ignore him.

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Posted: 05 September 2012 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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The trouble, C, is that his drivel wastes space on the forum.  Even if our members try to ignore him, many, especially new members, will still waste their time reading it.  Much better to get rid of it, and I don’t really care if he is happy because he was banned. 

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Posted: 05 September 2012 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Occam. - 05 September 2012 03:25 PM

The trouble, C, is that his drivel wastes space on the forum.  Even if our members try to ignore him, many, especially new members, will still waste their time reading it.  Much better to get rid of it, and I don’t really care if he is happy because he was banned. 

Occam

Ok, I get it.  Don’t feed the trolls.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 07 September 2012 05:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Firstly:

When the son of Adam dies and his soul departs and he is placed in his grave, then he is in the first stage of the Hereafter, because the grave is the first of the stages of the Hereafter.

It was narrated that Haani ‘the freed slave of’ Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan said: when’ Uthman ibn ‘Affaan stood by a grave he would weep until his beard became wet. It was said to him, “You remember Paradise and Hell and you do not weep, but you weep because of this?” He said, “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The grave is the first of the stages of the Hereafter; whoever is saved from it, whatever comes afterwards will be easier for him, but if he is not saved from it, what comes afterwards will be worse for him. ‘“And the Messenger of Allaah ( peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have never seen any scene but the grave is more frightening than it.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 2308; Ibn Maajah, 4567; classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami ‘, 1684).

Secondly:

The two angels who are charged with questioning come to him and ask him what he used to believe in in this world, who was his Lord, what was his religion and who was his Prophet. If he gives a good answer, that is good, but if he does not answer them they inflict a severe and painful beating on him.

If he was one of the righteous, angels with white faces come to him, but if he was one of the evildoers, angels with dark faces come to him. This is the fitnah or tribulation that he suffers.

It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to say,’ Allaahumma inni a’oodhu bika min al-kasali wa’l-haram wa’l-maghram wa’l- ma’tham. Allaahumma inni a’oodhu bika min ‘adhaab al-naar wa fitnat il-naar, wa fitnat il-qabri, wa’ adhaab il-qabri, wa sharri fitnat il-ghina wa sharri fitnat il-faqair wa min sharri fitnat il-maseeh il-Dajjaal. Allaahumma ighsil khataayaaya bi ma ‘al-thalji wa’l-baradi wa naqqi qalbi min al-khataaya kama yunaqqa al-thawb al-abyad min al-danas, wa baa’id bayni wa bayna khataayaaya kama baa’adta bayna al-mashriqi wa’l-maghrib (O Allah! I seek refuge with You from laziness and old age, and from debts and sins; from the torment of the Fire and from the tribulation of the Fire, and from the tribulation of the grave and the torment of the grave, and from the evil of the tribulation of wealth, and from the evil of the tribulation of poverty, and from the evil of the tribulation of the Dajjaal (Antichrist). O Allah! Wash away my sins with the water of snow and hail, and cleanse my heart from sin as a white garment is cleansed from filth, and put a great distance between me and my sins, as great as the distance You have made between the East and the West). “

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6014).

Ibn Hajar said:

The phrase “from the tribulation of the grave” means the questioning of the two angels.

Fath al-Baari, 11/177.

And al-Mubaarakfoori said:

“The tribulation of the grave” means confusion when answering the two angels.

Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 9/328

Thirdly:

With regard to the questions that the angels will ask in the grave, this is explained clearly in the following hadeeth:

It was narrated that al-Bara ‘(may Allaah be pleased with him) said: We went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for the funeral of a man from among the Ansaar. We came to the grave and when (the deceased) was placed in the lahd, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sat down and we sat around him, as if there were birds on our heads (ie, quiet and still). In his hand he had a stick with which he was scratching the ground. Then he raised his head and said, “Seek refuge with Allaah from the torment of the grave”, two or three times. Then he said, “When the believing slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him from heaven angels with white faces like the sun, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. They bring with them shrouds from Paradise and perfumes from Paradise. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits


by his head, and he says, ‘O good soul, come forth to forgiveness from Allaah and His pleasure.’ Then it comes out easily like a drop of water from the the mouth of a waterskin. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that shroud with that perfume, and there comes from it a fragrance like the finest musk on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this good soul?’ And they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the best names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is opened, and (the soul) is welcomed and accompanied to the next heaven by those who are closest to Allaah, until they reach the seventh heaven. Then Allaah says: ‘Record the book of My slave in’ Illiyoon in the seventh heaven, and return him to the earth, for from it I created them, to it I will return them and from it I will bring them forth once again. ‘So his soul is returned to his body and there come to him two angels who

make him sit up and they say to him,’ Who is your Lord? ‘He says,’ Allaah. ‘They say,’ What is your religion? ‘He says,’ My religion is Islam. ‘They say,’ Who is this man who was sent among you? ‘He says,’ He is the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). ‘They say , ‘What did you do?’ He says, ‘I read the Book of Allaah and I believed in it.’ Then a voice calls out from heaven, ‘My slave has spoken the truth, so prepare for him a bed from Paradise and clothe him from Paradise, and open for him a gate to Paradise. ‘Then there comes to him some of its fragrance, and his grave is made wide, as far as he can see. Then there comes to him a man with a handsome face and handsome clothes, and a good fragrance, who says, ‘Receive the glad tidings that will bring you joy this day.’ He says, ‘Who are you? Your face is a face which brings glad tidings. ‘He says,’ I am your righteous deeds. ‘He says,’ O Lord, hasten the Hour so that I may return to my family and my wealth. ‘But when the disbelieving slave is about to depart this world and enter the Hereafter, there come down to him


from heaven angels with black faces, bringing sackcloth, and they sit around him as far as the eye can see. Then the Angel of Death comes and sits by his head, and he says, ‘O evil soul, come forth to the wrath of Allaah and His anger.’ Then his soul disperses inside his body, then comes out cutting the veins and nerves, like a skewer passing through wet wool. When he seizes it, they do not leave it in his hand for an instant before they take it and put it in that sackcloth, and there comes from it a stench like the foulest stench of a dead body on the face of the earth. Then they ascend and they do not pass by any group of angels but they say, ‘Who is this evil soul?’ And they say, ‘It is So and so the son of So and so, calling him by the worst names by which he was known in this world, until they reach the lowest heaven. They ask for it to be opened to them and it is not opened. “Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited (interpretation of the meaning):

“For them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle”

[Al-A’raaf 7:40]

He said: “Then Allaah says, ‘Record the book of My slave in Sijjeen in the lowest earth, and return him to the earth, for from it I created them, to it I will return them and from it I will bring them forth once again. ‘So his soul is cast down. “Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever assigns partners to Allaah, it is as if he had fallen from the sky, and the birds had snatched him, or the wind had thrown him to a far off place”

[Al-Hajj 22:31]

He said: “Then his soul is returned to his body, and there come to him two angels who make him sit up and they say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He says, ‘Oh, oh, I don’t know. ‘They say,’ What is your religion? ‘He says,’ Oh, oh, I don’t know. ‘Then a voice calls out from heaven,’ Prepare for him a bed from Hell and clothe him from Hell, and open for him a gate to Hell. ‘Then there comes to him some of its heat and hot winds, and his grave is constricted and compresses him until his ribs interlock. Then there comes to him a man with an ugly face and ugly clothes, and a foul stench, who says, ‘Receive the bad news, this is the day that you were promised.’ He says, ‘Who are you? Your face is a face which forebodes evil. ‘He says,’ I am your evil deeds. ‘He says,’ O Lord, do not let the Hour come, do not let the Hour come. ‘“

Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4753; Ahmad, 18063 - this version was narrated by him. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami ‘, 1676.

The correct view is that the two angels will only question the deceased in his grave about matters of Tawheed (monotheism) and ‘aqeedah (belief). This is quite clear.

And Allaah knows best.

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Posted: 08 September 2012 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Someone here on drugs thinking that there is a way to punish or reward dead people.  Admit to reality; a dead person is dead, end of story.

Fixing the spelling again.

[ Edited: 13 September 2012 05:38 PM by garythehuman ]
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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 09 September 2012 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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garythehuman - 08 September 2012 01:51 PM

Someone here on drugs thinking that there is a way to punish or reward dead people.  Admidt to reality a dead person is dead, end of story.

Muslims are not supposed to imbibe in mind altering substances.  I am afraid what we have here, is a naturally occurring delusion.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 09 September 2012 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I believe Sony’s no longer here.

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Posted: 09 September 2012 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Thank the goddess Fortuna! Allah this, Mohammad that, and Abraham hit me with a whiffle ball bat! Surely he wasn’t attempting to gain converts here?

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 12 September 2012 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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I really have enjoyed reading your post.
Keep up doing good work.

ottawa office supplies
 
toronto office supplies

[ Edited: 16 September 2012 11:01 AM by Lucas Abregu ]
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Posted: 12 September 2012 07:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Christianity certainyl does.

What you describe is out of character for the Catholic Church. As a mother cautions her children, nurtures them by providing the largest selection and most reliable compliment of means for salvation, the Church guides men and and returns them on the correct path from an erring one, never leaving anyone to abandonment whilst in this world. She teaches not to be concerned with natural death, but to be aware of true death and it’s consequent loss of heaven, and restores their friendship with God so that they can never find themselves at death owing from a life of sin. She teaches us to detach from attaining honor among men, but to become vigilant emissaries for God while we wait to return from this exile to our source and final home which is our inheritance.

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Posted: 12 September 2012 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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The Church is like a mother? I guess. Except for those occasions “whilst” it rapes little children. Then it becomes a drunk stepfather.

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Posted: 12 September 2012 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Ah yes, of ministers and institutions.

The danger here are to those that form their obligations around human actions, and should choose not to become a part of the compounding effect of the sin they abhor.  They should be aware that the mistreatment of children comes in many forms and what is being watched closely by the celestial courts are the standards held by each individual. One would caution that for example condemning some for this practice and agreeing to abortions, or, agreeing to the drone bombardment of innocent “collateral” Afghan parents, thus by their death relegating now orphaned children to a life of probable squalor, to name a few, are some of these examples. The seemingly honorable stance in one area is nullified by the other, not only this, but disposes adults to this form of sin by the resulting lack of grace.

Another symptom deserving caution is steering of interest to suit an opinion or behavior. Here statistics in one area remains the focus, but contributing statistics that prove a more probable broad spectrum result are ignored. Any source that supports the opinion becomes suitable including headlines and tabloid rubbish. This is commonly seen in those who feel they can excuse themselves from obligations by revealing human faults. This of course is futile since Christ himself chose erring men to establish his Church, therefore the decision critiques his sense of judgement.

The response to the knowledge of these cases is to contribute in a positive way to children, to do that little extra because of it, to prove the person wrong by setting the proper example. To set a firm standard and inquire as to the “ultimate” effect a legislation could have on children.

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Posted: 12 September 2012 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Spence - 12 September 2012 05:43 PM

Ah yes, of ministers and institutions.

The danger here are to those that form their obligations around human actions, and should choose not to become a part of the compounding effect of the sin they abhor.  They should be aware that the mistreatment of children comes in many forms and what is being watched closely by the celestial courts are the standards held by each individual. One would caution that for example condemning some for this practice and agreeing to abortions, or, agreeing to the drone bombardment of innocent “collateral” Afghan parents, thus by their death relegating now orphaned children to a life of probable squalor, to name a few, are some of these examples. The seemingly honorable stance in one area is nullified by the other, not only this, but disposes adults to this form of sin by the resulting lack of grace.

Another symptom deserving caution is steering of interest to suit an opinion or behavior. Here statistics in one area remains the focus, but contributing statistics that prove a more probable broad spectrum result are ignored. Any source that supports the opinion becomes suitable including headlines and tabloid rubbish. This is commonly seen in those who feel they can excuse themselves from obligations by revealing human faults. This of course is futile since Christ himself chose erring men to establish his Church, therefore the decision critiques his sense of judgement.

The response to the knowledge of these cases is to contribute in a positive way to children, to do that little extra because of it, to prove the person wrong by setting the proper example. To set a firm standard and inquire as to the “ultimate” effect a legislation could have on children.

There is no such thing as “celestial courts” or Christ in heaven, for that matter. And individual women choosing to have abortions and the President ordering drone attacks, certainly have moral implications, but they in no way excuse Priests molesting children.  I do not consider it incautious to suggest that such Priests should be tried and convicted as efficiently as our criminal justice system allows, and be given long term sentences of incarceration.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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