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Trouble in Libya,Egypt
Posted: 12 September 2012 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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George - 12 September 2012 06:06 PM
TimB - 12 September 2012 05:21 PM

Perhaps I have not reached the stage of enlightenment that George may have attained.  I believe that bad, vulgar, offensive and poorly conceived sarcasm must be tolerated (or made fun of, or ignored)...

And that physical violence in retaliation must not be tolerated.

I never said that violence should be tolerated. I also wouldn’t mind when people identify Islam as primitive or Muslims (or at least a large portion of them) as violent, but calling Muslims or Arabs “a bunch of violent morons” borders on racism. Because that’s what in my opinion racism is: hating a group of people because they may be different from us.

I understand.

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Posted: 12 September 2012 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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If I were investigating who was involved in the initial production of the movie, I would first look for suspects in the two organizations in the links below.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/onward-christian-soldiers

http://nacopts1.blogspot.com/

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Posted: 12 September 2012 06:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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FWIW, the current updates are claiming that ambassador Christopher Stevens was not killed by rioters, but died of smoke inhalation.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57511234/libyan-doctor-u.s-ambassador-christopher-stevens-died-of-severe-asphyxia/

Of course the smoke was caused by the fires that the rioters started, but…........

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Posted: 12 September 2012 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 12 September 2012 05:34 PM

It now appears that this so-called anti Muslim movie was actually a set up to deliberately provoke the Muslim community to violence, and even the cast issued a statement citing passages that were changed and overdubbed. Whether here or in Lybia and Egypt, something’s hinky about the video. At this point everything about it is nebulous. The only thing that isn’t is Romney’s attempt to use it as a campaign issue.

Cap’t Jack

Romney’s outburst about this issue (and his subsequent doubling down) is another demonstration of what a fiasco he would be as Commander in Chief and for foreign relations. 

As President Obama said, Romney tends to “shoot first and aims later”. 

Another George W. Bush is the last thing we need in the White House.

Sounding “tough” for political gain is clearly a priority for Romney, over understanding what is really going on and acting judiciously.

[ Edited: 12 September 2012 07:06 PM by TimB ]
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Posted: 12 September 2012 11:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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I feel that as obnoxious as the movie clip was, it was merely an excuse for a well orchestrated attack by Kadafi supporters on the embassy since the U.S. backed the rebels and the new government.  Such demonstrations often escalate to rock throwing, even firing of pistols, and occasionally rifles, but when they bring shoulder held rocket launchers, that’s not a standard demonstration. 

Even George W. didn’t have as primitive a view of international relations as Romney has demonstrated.  I’d guess that at least 90% of the members of this forum would deal with foreign relations more intelligently than Romney has shown so far.  That’s really, really bad.

Occam

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Posted: 12 September 2012 11:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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George - 12 September 2012 08:41 AM

Yeah, I already saw a clip from it on the Spanish El País website. It has a photo of the dead ambassador as well; nothing seems to be a taboo in Europe. The “movie” looks like it was done by a mildly retarded person.

Some of the people who were involved (as actors, I suppose) said they were misguided as to what the film was about. They say phrases were added etc, etc. don’t know if they were trying to deflect some of the backwash, or telling the truth…but by the description, I wonder what they WERE expecting it to be about?

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Posted: 13 September 2012 02:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I never said that violence should be tolerated. I also wouldn’t mind when people identify Islam as primitive or Muslims (or at least a large portion of them) as violent, but calling Muslims or Arabs “a bunch of violent morons” borders on racism. Because that’s what in my opinion racism is: hating a group of people because they may be different from us.

To make it clear, I didnt call Arabs a bunch of violent morons, but those muslims which are going bananas every five minutes if something isnt done their way.
And it wouldnt even be racism if i would say that all Muslims are violent, because being “Muslim” is not something you are born with, it is an ideology, the same like being a democrat or a republican or a Nazi.
If you are a Muslim and you fully and firmly believe in all those commandments and rules made up by Mohammed, then you are not only a moron but a menace for human Civilization itself.

Because that’s what in my opinion racism is: hating a group of people because they may be different from us.

Sorry but thats nonsense, Racism is if you discriminate a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality or skin color.
We already (and since ever) discriminate those who are different from us in certain ways, like those people who enjoy doing human sacrifices, cannibalism, arson etc. they are separated from the rest of the population and put in small rooms for a very long time… what horrible form of racism.


btw: I dont understand why it is seen as vulgar to say that they are a bunch of violent morons?
Why would it be better to call them “a group of overly passionate People with severe intellectual deficits”?

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Posted: 13 September 2012 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Alexander80 - 13 September 2012 02:09 AM

And it wouldnt even be racism if i would say that all Muslims are violent, because being “Muslim” is not something you are born with, it is an ideology, the same like being a democrat or a republican or a Nazi.

Well, there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim. I am sure there are many Muslims who wouldn’t hurt a fly. And my grandfather was in the Wehrmacht and deserted the army once he realized what was going on. You would have a very hard time showing that it is indeed the ideology that makes some people behave violently. What if it’s the other way around? What if violent people come up with violent ideologies? Assuming that’s the case, I find it very irresponsible trying to provoke them, more so when the Western Freedom Fighters occupy so many of their lands. But I understand that too. As I already said elsewhere, if the Western Freedom Fighters won’t fight for Afghanistan’s lithium, then the Oriental Freedom Fighters will. Life is complicated.

In the meantime, I think we all need to calm down, and at least try to understand what is happening and listen to people who know what they are talking about. If you are reading Sam Harris, you are reading the wrong books.

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Posted: 13 September 2012 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Well, there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim. I am sure there are many Muslims who wouldn’t hurt a fly. And my grandfather was in the Wehrmacht and deserted the army once he realized what was going on. You would have a very hard time showing that it is indeed the ideology that makes some people behave violently. What if it’s the other way around? What if violent people come up with violent ideologies? Assuming that’s the case, I find it very irresponsible trying to provoke them, more so when the Western Freedom Fighters occupy so many of their lands. But I understand that too. As I already said elsewhere, if the Western Freedom Fighters won’t fight for Afghanistan’s lithium, then the Oriental Freedom Fighters will. Life is complicated

I tend to agree even though Sony’s posting in response to my question concerning the dampening effect of democrcy on sharia law was frightening to say the least. On the youtube video a cleric condemned democracy and called for it’s violent destruction. He was preaching hatred of every concept that I hold most dear. However, I don’t feel that all Muslims think or react in this manner, and if you saw some of the homemade signs displayed by the Lybians last night you might agree with George. Does the religion create the viloent behavior, or do some radical fundamentalists provoke and lead the “faithful”? Also to be considered are the historical implications of the area. Lybia has a history of violent behavior from the Barbary Wars of the erly 19th Century and further back when they raided xthian communities for converts and slaves. So this type of anti-western sentiment has deep roots in their culture. In short, it’s nothig new. European communities too are experiencing an influx of muslim immigrants and the right wing members of their various political parties are gathering in the xenophobic allies for a backlash movement against them. EX. the Dutch right wing party leader went on the BBC to explain the muslim problem. I think that the West should exercise caution in fully condemning everyone in a caftan and beard until the facts are known. Personally I don’t want to see our CnC in a jump suit with a large “mission accomplished” banner at his back.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 13 September 2012 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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In every religion there are radicals or extremist, they tend to see other means to attain there goals. Even violence. It is not for us to have a general concept of a certain race or religion.

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Posted: 13 September 2012 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Sure.  Whatever you say.  Here’s your lolli now go put on your fitted helmet and sit quietly in the corner.

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Posted: 13 September 2012 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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These incidents are (at least according to news reports I’ve read) in ‘poverty stricken’ countries. This violent behavior only serves to reinforce the poverty as what businesses would bother to invest in those countries?

Take care,

Derek

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Posted: 13 September 2012 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Alexander80 - 13 September 2012 02:09 AM

Because that’s what in my opinion racism is: hating a group of people because they may be different from us.

Sorry but thats nonsense, Racism is if you discriminate a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality or skin color.
We already (and since ever) discriminate those who are different from us in certain ways, like those people who enjoy doing human sacrifices, cannibalism, arson etc. they are separated from the rest of the population and put in small rooms for a very long time… what horrible form of racism.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Racism is if you reduce the individual to his racial characteristics. So discrimination on basis of religion is no racism; it is reducing the individual to the religion he feels that he belongs to. The question if somebody is violent or not should be attached to the person, not to his religious label.

Jennifer Stallone - 13 September 2012 10:08 AM

In every religion there are radicals or extremist, they tend to see other means to attain there goals. Even violence. It is not for us to have a general concept of a certain race or religion.

Perfectly true. Moslem violence can be better explained by a history of (partially continuing) oppression by the Western powers, and their cultures jettisoning in the modern world of science and technology that they did not develop themselves than by their religion. Religion is just a (very) useful tool.

BTW Discrimination has a counterpart in those that are discriminated: it helps them to identify themselves as a group (“I am discriminated because I am a Moslem”). And so it also helps to get more of those group members to become violent.

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Posted: 13 September 2012 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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GdB - 13 September 2012 10:55 AM

BTW Discrimination has a counterpart in those that are discriminated: it helps them to identify themselves as a group (“I am discriminated because I am a Moslem”). And so it also helps to get more of those group members to become violent.

The incident in Lybia exemplifies this point.  Religious right wing extremists in the U.S., apparently took action (making a spiteful, poorly discriminating video) that has apparently aided opposing religious extremists in Lybia to kill American diplomats.

(Although we don’t know if the motives of the rocket firing extremists were directly related to the bad video.  The demonstration at the embassy may have just given them the opportunity they needed to kill Americans in retaliation for the recent US killing of the Lybian Al Qaeda leader.)

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Posted: 13 September 2012 01:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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You would have a very hard time showing that it is indeed the ideology that makes some people behave violently. What if it’s the other way around? What if violent people come up with violent ideologies?


That would mean that there are countries in the world were people tend to be more violent then elswhere, it means that they are violent by nature (wouldnt that be racism?) because if you say that their surrounding made them so then that would support my position, and i think that ideology creates violence.

And i indeed think that it is religion/ideology which causes violence, for example, everywhere were islam gets involved we have some morons which blow themself up or kill other people, and it has nothing to do with social status, or poverty, many of these men are well educated and wealthy, like osama bin Laden, other leaders of the Al Quaida and those who have flown the planes of the 911 attacks.
There is also not less violence in Saudi Arabia which is a rich country, there is (religion induced) violence against women, stonings and beheadings for nothing at all, and so on.

Therefor i also dont think that religion may only be some sort of a catalyst for violent behavior that is already there, but its cause.
Not only violence is caused by religion and ideology but also all sorts of stupid self destructive behavior especially if we look at Germany till 1945.

Yes there has been some antisemitism and nacionalism in europe already but it took a lot of work to go from that to Auschwitz, a World War.

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