The Holy Spook magically caused me to find this thread on the ÏRestore the PledgeÓ forums as I was browsing the Net tonight. The following is my detailed response to Brother Shepherd.
Brother Shepherd: ÏI read the material on this site÷Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: Have you read the entire site, or just the page on hell? If I know my fundies (and I do), you either actually read very little of this site or you read very little of it with an open mind.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: Ï÷have to say that If this is the strongest secular argument against Christianity, they(secularists) have some huge philosophical dilemmas to deal with.Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: The information available on my site proves quite conclusively that Christianity is nothing but a pack of ancient myths and lies. What part of it did you not find convincing? I would say it is Christians rather than secularists who have some huge philosophical problems to deal with, not the least of which is the need to prove that there is a god, and then to prove that this existing god is their god - the god of the bible. I am a convinced atheist, and it causes me no philosophical dilemmas. Which ones do I supposedly have, in your opinion?[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: Ï÷why I would say he was never a Christian in the first placeÓ
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: So he wasnÌt a True ChristianÙ in your O So Humble Opinion, but you are, right? Sure, right! Glory! IsnÌt it amazing how fundies always claim that ex-Christians were never True ChristiansÙ to begin with? ItÌs a convenient cop out, but that doesnÌt make it true.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏThey try to drag God down to their level (human/mortal) and then judge Him and His actions as being hypocritical and/or contradictory to what He says in the Bible (therefore the Bible is full of contradictions, lies, cruelty, etc.). As if they have the merit to make such judgements.Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: As god is an invention of humans, it would be hard to Ïdrag him downÓ any further than he already is. So we are just supposed to take the bible at face value and not judge it or its god in any way? Sorry, but unlike fundies, I like my brain and I like using it. The bible is full of contradictions. It contains hundreds of them. It is also unquestionably full of lies and cruelty as well. Not to mention the myths, fables, nonhistorical ÏhistoryÓ, etc.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏGodÌs very nature, that is the intrinsic characteristic that separates Him from every other being in the universe (the Bible is very clear on this) is holiness.Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: Your allegedly ÏholyÓ god is responsible for ordering or directly committing the slaughter of many thousands of people. If he were real and he were human, he would be locked up as the worst mass murderer in human history. Explain why this is so if your god is ÏholyÓ and why I should take seriously your claim or the bibleÌs claim that its god is ÏholyÓ. Thanks.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏGodÌs nature is diametrically opposed to ours÷Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: IÌll agree to this, given the fact that next to your god (who would be the worst mass murderer in history if he were actually real), even the worst of us looks rosy by comparison.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: Ï÷it isnÌt because God is evil, monstrous, or anything of the sortÓ
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: Yes, it is. Read your bible! According to your bible, your god is an unspeakably evil, monstrous, murderous, genocidal maniac!
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Brother Shepherd: Ï÷holy and powerful beyond human comprehension?Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: Your god is hardly ÏholyÓ. Powerful beyond human comprehension? Really? Are you familiar with Judges 1:19? Seems that your Ïpowerful beyond human comprehensionÓ god has a problem with iron chariots. lol÷[/b:bc450d0175] 
Brother Shepherd: ÏThe Bible describes God in his holiness as Ïa consuming fireÓ
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: The image of Ïa consuming fireÓ brings to my mind an angry, wrathful monster of a god, which is exactly the kind of god we find in the bible! Glory![/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏDoesnÌt the Bible say that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom?Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: Yes, the bible does say that, and itÌs one of its many absurd claims. The notion that the fear of a god is the beginning of wisdom is patently absurd.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏNone of us can even challenge this definition of love.Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: Of course we can, and I do. The god of the bible clearly is not ÏloveÓ. The god of the bible is a murderous, genocidal maniac. The bible is crystal clear regarding this fact.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏHow about humility/humbleness? Can anyone claim the last time they met someone who clearly had these qualities?Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: I know and have known several very nice, very humble people.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏWhat does the Bible say about them?Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: It says that they will be barbecued for eternity because they were not Christians.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏDoesnÌt God say that if a man should humble himself before God, that God will exhalt him? WasnÌt Christ the ultimate example of this? WasnÌt He humble before God and humiliated before men? ÷Ótherefore I(God) shall exhalt him(Christ) above all othersÓ.Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: God doesnÌt say anything since he is a myth. Jesus is also a myth, by the way. According to your mythology, yes, thatÌs true.
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Brother Shepherd: ÏIs it possible that the abominations carried out in the name of religion over the ages is a result of the fallibility of man? Not God?Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: No, because the abominations carried out in the name of religion in the bible were either ordered or directly committed by your god. Those carried out over the last 2000 years are the responsibility of the Church. When they reigned supreme, by the way, we enjoyed a glorious period of history known as the Dark Ages.[/b:bc450d0175]
Brother Shepherd: ÏI read posts and hear people say things like ÏIÌve read the Bible front to back. ItÌs incredibly inconsistent, misogynistic, hypocritical, etc.Ó Anyone who says these things has either taken versus out of context, misinterpreted verse, or has not actually read it, but is basing their opinions on what someone else says, who has supposedly read it.Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: In other words, they are lying or they just didnÌt understand it. What a load of bullshit. I personally havenÌt ever read the entire bible, but I have read most of it over time, and yes it is inconsistent, misogynistic, hypocritical, loaded with myths, fables, nonhistorical ÏhistoryÓ, etc. The bible has tons of problems, and it hardly qualifies as the ÏwordÓ of a god!
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Brother Shepherd:Ó÷if anyone wants to give me specific examples of Biblical contradiction, immorality, etc.Ó
[b:bc450d0175]Brother Jeff: Sure, no problem! See this link for a long list of biblical contradictions. See this link for just one example of biblical immorality. If you want examples of biblical atrocities, just let me know. I can give you many of them! Glory!
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